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2 hours ago, Left Back said:

it's sod all to do with that ya fanny.  we need more doctors and nurses so we should be training more.

Or we should keep bringing them in from other countries, like we've been doing all along.

The idea that there is enough suitably capable people willing and able to train as doctors and nurses in the UK, for that pay and with those hours, is probably very wrong anyway.

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15 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Or we should keep bringing them in from other countries, like we've been doing all along.

The idea that there is enough suitably capable people willing and able to train as doctors and nurses in the UK, for that pay and with those hours, is probably very wrong anyway.

Correct

f**k poor countries. They shouldn't have any medical staff if they can't be bothered having lots of money. 

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21 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

The IJBs have been a complete waste of time. Years in and still nobody know what they are meant to be doing and delayed discharge are still a huge issue.

Get the National Care Service up and running and get people out of hospitals.

Preach. 

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39 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Correct

f**k poor countries. They shouldn't have any medical staff if they can't be bothered having lots of money. 

Every time I try and discuss real things on this site I quickly realise it's a waste of time. I'll head back to the football now.

Those people want to come here, btw. 

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13 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Every time I try and discuss real things on this site I quickly realise it's a waste of time. I'll head back to the football now.

Those people want to come here, btw. 

Of course they do. "Brain Drain" is a major barrier to development in the third world. It's far from being an unconditionally good thing to import highly skilled labour. 

Flounce off all you want and take your pretend moral high ground with you. 

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2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Well what you do is give the NHS money and it allows them to hire staff to service the needs of the country. Quite why you think I would have any of the figures you're asking for is anyones guess. It's about priorities, do you want to spend money on weapons to kill people or 98 billion on a train, or do you want to make sure your country has sufficient health care. We're fucked in trillions of debt so don't give me this bankrupt the country pish. 

Right so after slagging off another poster, it turns out that you've given less than 20 seconds of thought into your own idea.

Thought so.

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2 hours ago, CountyFan said:

Big acute hospitals are running routinely with 50+ nursing shortages a day. It is literally impossible to train too many, especially at the current rate that they are leaving. In fact, training more might convince the rest of them to stay because they won't be so ridiculously burnt out. 

My job isnt to make policy decisions or work out how to fund the NHS, it's to make sure the resources we do have are used appropriately. I'm just giving some suggestions for what would help. 

And that's fair enough.

The point I'm trying to make is that it cannot be a simple problem to fix and it can't just be a case of throwing money at it because nobody from any party has ever been able to make that work.

The NHS is probably too big to fix in the way you are describing IMO.

What I think is that as a society we need to step back from this and start thinking about our own responsibility not to overwhelm it by not looking after ourselves. We are a nation of fat, unhealthy b*****ds complaining because the NHS can't cope with all the associated illness caused by that.

IMO we need to stop pouring money into a black hole and deal with the root cause - ourselves.

Not having tranches of perfectly healthy staff sitting at home after being pinged would be another thing.

None of this is easy to solve though because of the size of the organisation and what we are asking of it.

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32 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Every time I try and discuss real things on this site I quickly realise it's a waste of time. I'll head back to the football now.

Those people want to come here, btw. 

 

21 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Of course they do. "Brain Drain" is a major barrier to development in the third world. It's far from being an unconditionally good thing to import highly skilled labour. 

Flounce off all you want and take your pretend moral high ground with you. 

Patrick Cockburn has written about this a few times most recently in June of this year. I believe he said in a previous article that he grew up in the Republic of Ireland where healthcare was hampered by a shortage of medical professionals as a result of them largely leaving for the UK. Combined with our apparent underperforming in producing nurses and doctors it is a point worth considering. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/foreign-aid-covid-vaccines-doctors-nurses-trained-abroad-b1864069.html

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1 hour ago, GordonS said:

The idea that there is enough suitably capable people willing and able to train as doctors and nurses in the UK, for that pay and with those hours, is probably very wrong anyway.

Universities turn down about 7 out of 10 medical school candidates if my memory serves me correctly.

Pretty sure nursing colleges are also turning away most candidates

Happy to be corrected on both points but a lack of willingness is not the problem.

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Should maybe go in the petty things that annoy you thread but people working for the NHS conveniently hide their final salary (or average salary) public pensions when banging on about how poor they are paid.

Edited by red23
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1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Every time I try and discuss real things on this site I quickly realise it's a waste of time. I'll head back to the football now.

Those people want to come here, btw. 

When you develop some self-awareness have a wee think about what the common denominator is in the discussions you find a waste of time.

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26 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

And that's fair enough.

The point I'm trying to make is that it cannot be a simple problem to fix and it can't just be a case of throwing money at it because nobody from any party has ever been able to make that work.

The NHS is probably too big to fix in the way you are describing IMO.

What I think is that as a society we need to step back from this and start thinking about our own responsibility not to overwhelm it by not looking after ourselves. We are a nation of fat, unhealthy b*****ds complaining because the NHS can't cope with all the associated illness caused by that.

IMO we need to stop pouring money into a black hole and deal with the root cause - ourselves.

Not having tranches of perfectly healthy staff sitting at home after being pinged would be another thing.

None of this is easy to solve though because of the size of the organisation and what we are asking of it.

You (rightly) get a lot of stick on here from what I've seen but you're spot on with this. 

Instead of CMOs talking about "realistic medicine" we need doctors everywhere to practice it wholesale. Still a long way off I think. 

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23 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Universities turn down about 7 out of 10 medical school candidates if my memory serves me correctly.

Pretty sure nursing colleges are also turning away most candidates

Happy to be corrected on both points but a lack of willingness is not the problem.

One of the reasons we should be training more.  If anyone can present a good reason why we shouldn’t train more medical staff in the UK I’d love to hear it.

I think I read somewhere that it costs £100k to train a doctor in the UK and that’s one of the reasons why its capped.  Over a 40 year career that’s a small investment for the taxpayer to make for a service we all need at some point.

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17 minutes ago, red23 said:

Should maybe go in the petty things that annoy you thread but people working for the NHS conveniently hide their final salary (or average salary) public pensions when banging on about how poor they are paid.

Our salaries are a matter of public record, we have nothing to hide. 

Worth considering this though. I am far from a CEO, but the CEOs of Lothian and GGC for example take in approx £150k a year before tax. Ask yourself how many private sector CEOs would get out of bed for that at an organisation of comparable size. We are talking multi-billion pound organisations with 25k+ staff. It won't be a popular view because that's clearly still obscene money, but I have a lot of respect for people who will work at that level in the public sector, with the shite and politics and stress that come with it, when they could be making many times as much money in the private sector. 

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13 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:
47 minutes ago, red23 said:
Should maybe go in the petty things that annoy you thread but people working for the NHS conveniently hide their final salary (or average salary) public pensions when banging on about how poor they are paid.

Public sector final salary schemes were stopped years ago.

Not all of them.  A mate of mine went to work for a public sector organisation last year.  He’s on a DB scheme accruing at 49ths which is better than the private sector DB pension he was getting in the job he was made redundant from.

ETA I have no idea what schemes NHS staff are on btw.

Edited by Left Back
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Not all of them.  A mate of mine went to work for a public sector organisation last year.  He’s on a DB scheme accruing at 49ths which is better than the private sector DB pension he was getting in the job he was made redundant from.
ETA I have no idea what schemes NHS staff are on btw.
The PS element of my work is still DB but they are now average earnings rather than final salary. I think I have accrued benefits in 4 different PS schemes now over the years but in the current climate 49ths are good going. It was a terminology thing my initial response. A lot of us old timers don't think of the newer schemes as final salary but they technically are. I remember when I worked at one particular LA mid 80s it was standard practice to "promote " someone in their final year just to boost their FS pension. Was also prevalent in the police. I doubt the NHS was too different.
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