Amazon’s Tolkien Adaptation - Coming 2nd September 2022 Discussion

[sfha]

The Silmarillion, and by extension the History of Middle Earth series, is a big earner for the Tolkien Estate. I'd love for this to be made for broadcast but it would have to be made over umpteen series on lavish budgets. 

[Thorongil]

9 minutes ago, sfha said:

The Silmarillion, and by extension the History of Middle Earth series, is a big earner for the Tolkien Estate. I'd love for this to be made for broadcast but it would have to be made over umpteen series on lavish budgets. 

The Estate now consists of 3 very elderly people, none of whom want to sell the jerseys at this point. They have millions in royalties still coming in every year from Jackson’s movies, new books and editions still being produced until last year and £250m in the bank from the Amazon rights alone. 
Christopher Tolkien would have made his views very clear to them all before his death 2 years ago. “Don’t sell The Sil”. 
 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Thorongil

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Thorongil said:

It might be more of a challenge in GRR Martin’s world if they were casting black actors as Valyrians for example. Still wouldn’t bother me.

Take it you've not followed the casting of 'House of the Dragon'? The same racial diversity/wokeness divide within the fanbase has taken place. At least GRRM is around to give give his okay.

[sfha]

1 hour ago, Thorongil said:

The Estate now consists of 3 very elderly people, none of whom want to sell the jerseys at this point. They have millions in royalties still coming in every year from Jackson’s movies, new books and editions still being produced until last year and £250m in the bank from the Amazon rights alone. 
Christopher Tolkien would have made his views very clear to them all before his death 2 years ago. “Don’t sell The Sil”. 
 

Possibly a carry over of JRR selling the rights to LOTR for a relative pittance in the 1960s to finance his children's education. The custodians won't want to make that mistake again.

[RandomGuy.]

I'm looking forward to this series, despite knowing it won't live up to the hype and will likely ruin a few characters in the process.

The absolute fucking worst bit about it is having to deal with the hundreds of absolute freaks who've spent the past month mewling about their being a black elf and how dreadful it is. Its a fucking fantasy world lads, why do you care.

[Thorongil]

15 minutes ago, sfha said:

Possibly a carry over of JRR selling the rights to LOTR for a relative pittance in the 1960s to finance his children's education. The custodians won't want to make that mistake again.

The Silmarillion could have been sold at any time. It never has and never will be without assurances that no studio will want to give. 
The Estate doesn’t need the money. They and their heirs and multi millionaires many times over. 

Maybe the heirs will sell it one day.

[Thorongil]

54 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Take it you've not followed the casting of 'House of the Dragon'? The same racial diversity/wokeness divide within the fanbase has taken place. At least GRRM is around to give give his okay.

I spotted the Sea Snake. Looks to be an ok piece of casting but time will tell I guess. 

People really struggle with the concept of “adaptation”.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Thorongil

[Thorongil]

8 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm looking forward to this series, despite knowing it won't live up to the hype and will likely ruin a few characters in the process.

The absolute fucking worst bit about it is having to deal with the hundreds of absolute freaks who've spent the past month mewling about their being a black elf and how dreadful it is. Its a fucking fantasy world lads, why do you care.

It can’t ruin any characters. It’s just an adaptation. I’ll take what I like from it and ignore what I don’t. Even the Hobbit films had good bits, like the assault on Dol Guldur.

Just never mind the mewling mopes which are largely totally ignorant on Tolkien and his works. The showrunners seem far more knowledgeable than them.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Thorongil

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

It can’t ruin any characters. It’s just an adaptation.

I worry they'll try and make Sauron a sympathetic character with a troubled back story. 

I'm aware that he might will act like that anyway if hes in his "nice guy Sauron" stage of being trying to get people on side, but I'm afraid they'll take it too far.

I've not read the appendices/Silmarillion for a long time now, and honestly haven't bothered reading too much about the new series plot yet as I'm planning on trying to go in and view it "first time" as I hate knowing exactly where stories are headed, so I'm not overly sure where/how he'll be in it. I just remember the role he played with Numenor and I've seen they'll be in it.

[Thorongil]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

I worry they'll try and make Sauron a sympathetic character with a troubled back story. 

I'm aware that he might will act like that anyway if hes in his "nice guy Sauron" stage of being trying to get people on side, but I'm afraid they'll take it too far.

I've not read the appendices/Silmarillion for a long time now, and honestly haven't bothered reading too much about the new series plot yet as I'm planning on trying to go in and view it "first time" as I hate knowing exactly where stories are headed, so I'm not overly sure where/how he'll be in it. I just remember the role he played with Numenor and I've seen they'll be in it.

I think he’ll be portrayed at truly evil but we might get some of what drives him, which you have to look really hard for in the texts. He’s quite different from Morgoth, who was an outright nihilist, though still thoroughly bad to the bone. 

Sauron wants to rule and in his mind, at least as his tyrannical desires took root, it’s for the benefit of everyone to bow to him. He hates the Eldar and wants them under his control, I think due to his humbling by Luthien. When the Ring debacle goes wrong he wants the elves dead and dominion over the remnant of Numenor. 

He does have coherent motivation, unlike his master, who was himself just uncontrolled hate.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Thorongil

[velo army]

12 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm looking forward to this series, despite knowing it won't live up to the hype and will likely ruin a few characters in the process.

The absolute fucking worst bit about it is having to deal with the hundreds of absolute freaks who've spent the past month mewling about their being a black elf and how dreadful it is. Its a fucking fantasy world lads, why do you care.

The criticism I've read has been fairly well put and centres around Tolkien's world already being well defined. You say it's a fantasy world. It is, but in fantasy world building is arguably the most important thing. We invest in the world if it has rules we understand and a sense of place. I guess if the show introduces us to a land of beings with dark skin and can therefore explain why a race of underground beings managed to have one of their number have a high melanin count then that's cool. 

 

 

 

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, velo army said:

The criticism I've read has been fairly well put and centres around Tolkien's world already being well defined. You say it's a fantasy world. It is, but in fantasy world building is arguably the most important thing. We invest in the world if it has rules we understand and a sense of place. I guess if the show introduces us to a land of beings with dark skin and can therefore explain why a race of underground beings managed to have one of their number have a high melanin count then that's cool. 

 

 

 

That's on par with saying you can't have a black Santa because he comes from the North Pole.

[Thorongil]

7 minutes ago, velo army said:

The criticism I've read has been fairly well put and centres around Tolkien's world already being well defined. You say it's a fantasy world. It is, but in fantasy world building is arguably the most important thing. We invest in the world if it has rules we understand and a sense of place. I guess if the show introduces us to a land of beings with dark skin and can therefore explain why a race of underground beings managed to have one of their number have a high melanin count then that's cool. 

 

 

 

In all the writings of Tolkien I have never found any reference to the skin colour of dwarves.

[mishtergrolsch]

As most of Tolkiens Middle Earth is based around Norse mythology and was his version of English mythology I would imagine that there's not much variation on white skin other than where he has specifically mentioned.

I see where some folk are coming from in terms of Elves always being fair skinned etc and sticking with the Lore but is it something in this day and age that will break the immersion? Not for me. 

Personally, I don't care if there are black actors playing Elves or Dwarven Queens or whatever. If the actors do a good job portraying their characters then thats all that matters to me.

I do think that Elves should have long hair though as that is in keeping with the overall appearance of Elves. And someone get that Dwarven Queen a fucking beard!

[velo army]

31 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

That's on par with saying you can't have a black Santa because he comes from the North Pole.

Well aye, if Santa is the fictitious creature in a world created by an author and the people from the North Pole are white people. If you're recreating the work of the author whose works are well known and beloved by fans it can be considered a touch arrogant to change fairly noticeable things like the race of a character when these things are already established. From what I understand the different races of people in middle earth are very distinct. Dwarves look a certain way and elves look a certain way. If there has been some mixing (and according to those who've read Tolkein there have been a grand total of about three elf-human relationships) then it should have some sort of explanation included in the show.

Diversity in TV shows is almost always a good thing. It needs to happen more. Action heroes of different genders and races as well as diversity in important side characters (and engaging antagonists) is something we can all get behind. In fantasy shows it needs to be consistent with the world in which it is set. Having a bunch of white chaps walking about Wakanda would have made no sense as the rules of the world have been established. In the Witcher I found that having diversity every where Geralt went gave me no sense of him really being anywhere. In Game of Thrones, as in other fantasy series, we learn that there are different lands where the people speak differently and look different. It gave a sense of a vast and rich world that we could really invest in. Where there is diversity in individual places there is explanation (trading port or a town on a popular trading route etc) as part of the explanation of the rules of the world. Ditto if there is someone whose race marks them as a minority, or a singular standout, we learn why they are there. 

Tolkein, from what I've heard, wanted to create a mythology for England and based almost all of it on Norse Mythology. There is no need for racial diversity in the adaptations beyond the existing diversity of dwarves, elves and men. If there are then, as I said before, it should be explained. Tolkein fans are irked at what they see as Tolkein's name being used to sell a show that is far from faithful to the world he created.

And aye, dwarf women have beards, so more of that please.

 

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, velo army said:

Tolkein, from what I've heard, wanted to create a mythology for England and based almost all of it on Norse Mythology.

This is where the ire comes from imo, people associated with the likes of Anders Breivik are huge on Norse Mythology, forgetting that the Vikings did a fair amount of mixing and slaving a long way from home. Banning black actors to appease such a narrow view of Tolkien's imaginary world would be craven.

[Thorongil]

7 minutes ago, velo army said:

Well aye, if Santa is the fictitious creature in a world created by an author and the people from the North Pole are white people. If you're recreating the work of the author whose works are well known and beloved by fans it can be considered a touch arrogant to change fairly noticeable things like the race of a character when these things are already established. From what I understand the different races of people in middle earth are very distinct. Dwarves look a certain way and elves look a certain way. If there has been some mixing (and according to those who've read Tolkein there have been a grand total of about three elf-human relationships) then it should have some sort of explanation included in the show.

Diversity in TV shows is almost always a good thing. It needs to happen more. Action heroes of different genders and races as well as diversity in important side characters (and engaging antagonists) is something we can all get behind. In fantasy shows it needs to be consistent with the world in which it is set. Having a bunch of white chaps walking about Wakanda would have made no sense as the rules of the world have been established. In the Witcher I found that having diversity every where Geralt went gave me no sense of him really being anywhere. In Game of Thrones, as in other fantasy series, we learn that there are different lands where the people speak differently and look different. It gave a sense of a vast and rich world that we could really invest in. Where there is diversity in individual places there is explanation (trading port or a town on a popular trading route etc) as part of the explanation of the rules of the world. Ditto if there is someone whose race marks them as a minority, or a singular standout, we learn why they are there. 

Tolkein, from what I've heard, wanted to create a mythology for England and based almost all of it on Norse Mythology. There is no need for racial diversity in the adaptations beyond the existing diversity of dwarves, elves and men. If there are then, as I said before, it should be explained. Tolkein fans are irked at what they see as Tolkein's name being used to sell a show that is far from faithful to the world he created.

And aye, dwarf women have beards, so more of that please.

 

The frame narratives have the storyline taking place 7000/8000 years ago. He didn’t base it all on Norse mythology, all respected mythologies had significant influence. 

Do you think England was all white 7000/8000 years ago? Britain was a peninsula. 

[Thorongil]

The thing about dwarven women having beards is such a minor point. Can’t bring myself to care about that.

[velo army]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

This is where the ire comes from imo, people associated with the likes of Anders Breivik are huge on Norse Mythology, forgetting that the Vikings did a fair amount of mixing and slaving a long way from home. Banning black actors to appease such a narrow view of Tolkien's imaginary world would be craven.

Bit of a Godwin here. 

"Banning" is a poor and emotive choice of words. Male actors weren't "banned" from playing Amazons in Wonder Woman, they just weren't cast as that would have been a bit silly. 

As I said, the ire of the fans is mostly that they just want what Tolkein wrote put on screen. The characterisation of them being right wing racist types is I think a bit simplistic. People who have grown up reading certain books tend to claim ownership over them. Whether you agree with that or choose to sneer at that is up to you. It makes no difference, it's just what folk do. 

I don't know much about Norse Mythology, but I don't know if there are any black characters in it. Black vikings? Sure, but Tolkein based his novels around a very white world. You see it as craven to stay faithful to his vision, and I think that is harsh. I would say that if a particular author's world (and all author's worlds are imaginary) doesn't chime with the political sensibilities of the age, then pick another text. 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

37 minutes ago, velo army said:

If you're recreating the work of the author whose works are well known and beloved by fans it can be considered a touch arrogant to change fairly noticeable things like the race of a character when these things are already established. From what I understand the different races of people in middle earth are very distinct. Dwarves look a certain way and elves look a certain way. If there has been some mixing (and according to those who've read Tolkein there have been a grand total of about three elf-human relationships) then it should have some sort of explanation included in the show.

Unless Elrond is now a Dwarf, and Galadriel a human within the Middle-Earth race isn't being changed, just ethnicity. And there are examples of different ethnicities most notably in men, why wouldn't that apply to the other races when it comes to skin colour?