Amazon’s Tolkien Adaptation - Coming 2nd September 2022 Discussion

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, mishtergrolsch said:

....The Balrog being woken 2 Durins early is a weird choice too....

Think it's OK if that's the end of it now. It shows Durin III is right to be concerned and ties into the LoTR movie for people who don't remember the back story. The mithril angle helps explain why it was something so valuable and they can always use a just because Tolkein never mentioned it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened approach as they are no doubt going to do with Celeborn disappearing for a bit in the Second Age.

Tricky bit though is how the Wood Elves from the Hobbit fit in given they were never anywhere near Moria and the "Rings of Power", so maybe the Elves perishing isn't the full story and they are using that to guilt trip the Dwarves (mainly Durin IV) into supplying it for some other reason related to creating the rings.

[GiGi]

9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think it's OK if that's the end of it now. It shows Durin III is right to be concerned and ties into the LoTR movie for people who don't remember the back story. The mithril angle helps explain why it was something so valuable and they can always use a just because Tolkein never mentioned it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened approach as they are no doubt going to do with Celeborn disappearing for a bit in the Second Age.

Tricky bit though is how the Wood Elves from the Hobbit fit in given they were never anywhere near Moria and the "Rings of Power", so maybe the Elves perishing isn't the full story and they are using that to guilt trip the Dwarves (mainly Durin IV) into supplying it for some other reason related to creating the rings.

Only one of the rings was made from mithril and I don't think the elves would have had to beg too hard for that much ore.

Suspect it will be explained a bit better as the series progresses.

[RandomGuy.]

14 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Tricky bit though is how the Wood Elves from the Hobbit fit in given they were never anywhere near Moria and the "Rings of Power", so maybe the Elves perishing isn't the full story and they are using that to guilt trip the Dwarves (mainly Durin IV) into supplying it for some other reason related to creating the rings.

Presumably the leaf recovering after being next to mithril means we're having to believe the elves are correct about needing it to survive, which is a worrying development for the rest of the show, as its likely they wont have Sauron behind the scenes manipulating to create the rings, and he'll just stumble onto it instead somehow. 

I dont think theyre legally allowed to have Gandalf in the show, FWIW.

[RandomGuy.]

14 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 

Tricky bit though is how the Wood Elves from the Hobbit fit in given they were never anywhere near Moria and the "Rings of Power", so maybe the Elves perishing isn't the full story and they are using that to guilt trip the Dwarves (mainly Durin IV) into supplying it for some other reason related to creating the rings.

Presumably the leaf recovering after being next to mithril means we're having to believe the elves are correct about needing it to survive, which is a worrying development for the rest of the show, as its likely they wont have Sauron behind the scenes manipulating to create the rings, and he'll just stumble onto it instead somehow. 

I dont think theyre legally allowed to have Gandalf in the show, FWIW.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Enjoying this, but agree with all the glaring inconsistencies and bad dialogue choices others have been pointing out. 

Right at the end of Ep 7 we had another: Halbrand has had his stomach torn open, and he needs Elvish medicine (TM)!!! then 30 seconds later he's tearing across the countryside on horseback. 

Bit concerned for the wellbeing of loremaster @Thorongilsince the series started though. Has it all been too much for him?

[PrestersKTID]

5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Presumably the leaf recovering after being next to mithril means we're having to believe the elves are correct about needing it to survive, which is a worrying development for the rest of the show, as its likely they wont have Sauron behind the scenes manipulating to create the rings, and he'll just stumble onto it instead somehow. 

I dont think theyre legally allowed to have Gandalf in the show, FWIW.

if galadriels ring is made of mithril then it makes sense, as that ring gave the power to preserve life n stuff, that's why lorien looks proper elfy

[RandomGuy.]

15 minutes ago, PrestersKTID said:

if galadriels ring is made of mithril then it makes sense, as that ring gave the power to preserve life n stuff, that's why lorien looks proper elfy

Tbf found something that claims hers is the only ring that has mithril it, so that would add up.

[LongTimeLurker]

Worth a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Rings

as mentioned above the trees not surviving without the power of the rings fits with Tolkien's LoTR text on what happened to Lorien after the one ring was destroyed. Given the origin story they have for mithril revolves around a simaril and hence from the light of the two trees of Valinor they showed in the first episode, I guess it's possible to see where they are going with that because it implies that light source still being needed to keep Middle Earth the way the High Elves such as Elrond and Galadriel like it.

Think the trees starting to die was related to Sauron being back even though Gil-galad wanted to pretend he wasn't and sent Galadriel to the Undying Lands to get rid of her for contradicting him on that. Enter Halbrand on a raft...

[saint dave]

On 11/10/2022 at 06:26, RandomGuy. said:

 

I dont think theyre legally allowed to have Gandalf in the show, FWIW.

Think Olorin is mentioned in the appendices , which I think they have access to. 

[mishtergrolsch]

3 minutes ago, saint dave said:

Think Olorin is mentioned in the appendices , which I think they have access to. 

That's been my thinking for a while. Either that or the Stranger is a Blue Wizard. 

Has to be a Maiar as he has magic powers. No humans, elves, dwarves or harfoots/horrible arseholes have powers like that as far as I know anyway.

Which, if im right, makes the Priestess a Maiar too after she burned the Harfoots caravan park to the ground.

Fully appreciate I could be wildly wrong but that's my understanding anyway!

[dorlomin]

2 years to the next series. No one will remember this exists in 3 months let alone 2 years. 

[RandomGuy.]

Think everyone knew who Sauron was a few weeks ago?

Its not the worst and there is hints to it throughout, his logic ("i want to heal Middle Earth") is lore accurate aswell, tbf.

Didnt mind the Stranger/Harfoot storyline either, even if it throws up certain issues later on with how things play out.

I enjoyed it, and remain convinced its partly aimed at new viewers as much as LOTR veterans.

[mishtergrolsch]

Its clear why Tom Shippey "left" part way through.

Wow.

Clunky dialogue, cringe worthy at times, some totally predictable things (sauron and the Stranger) signposted so obviously you think it's too obvious and other things (mithril) that just blow the lore apart. Mind boggling stuff considering the stuff they have access to.

Gandalf was way undervaluing the Mithril coat Bilbo gave to Frodo by a continent.

Fair play to those that are enjoying it but I feel when you scratch the surface the whole show begins to fall to bits.

[AMMjag]

I feel the whole series would be improved considerably by completely removing the Harfoots whose scenes have offered nothing but insufferable characters and cringey, contradictory dialogue. 

In LOTR the Hobbits and The Shire give a sense of 'home' and set the stakes for what would be lost if Sauron was to regain the Ring - there is a point to them. Here it's just wandering about aimlessly to find some apples and is just a boring distraction from the other interesting plot lines in Eregion, Numenor and the Southlands. 

The rest of the plot needs the extra time aswell. Granted there is maybe space for Sauron to return to Eregion as Annatar in S2, but the whole forging the rings and his manipulating of Celebrimbor should be the main centre point of the series and instead felt very flash-in-the-pan. Albeit I enjoyed the inevitable Halbrand reveal much more than I thought I would.

The main revelation of the series for me is that the Balrog wasn't in fact awoken in a fit of fiery rage by the Dwarves digging too deep, but by Disa's Susan fucking Calman accent echoing down past everyone's cringing toes and into the pits of the earth. Hopefully it takes her out pronto.

 

 

 

[Raidernation]

I’m guessing the Stranger is Saruman


ETA: After leaving with Nori and the “sweet smell that way…….follow your nose…”

That’s almost a direct quote from Gandalf when they’re in Moria trying to find the correct path.

I think that’s fucking obvious signpost!

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, AMMjag said:

I feel the whole series would be improved considerably by completely removing the Harfoots whose scenes have offered nothing but insufferable characters and cringey, contradictory dialogue. 

The rest of the plot needs the extra time aswell. Granted there is maybe space for Sauron to return to Eregion as Annatar in S2, but the whole forging the rings and his manipulating of Celebrimbor should be the main centre point of the series and instead felt very flash-in-the-pan. Albeit I enjoyed the inevitable Halbrand reveal much more than I thought I would.

I think we'll see less of the hobbits in s2, as itll now be Gandalf and Froda taking up that "section".

I dont like how theyve made it seem as if Sauron just constantly stumbles onto good luck (meeting Galadriel at sea, Mt Doom being created, ending up with Celebrimbor whos already starting making the rings to a degree), none of it feels like its his scheming so it defeats the point of his character. 

2 hours ago, Raidernation said:

I’m guessing the Stranger is Saruman
 

Its Gandalf.

[mishtergrolsch]

4 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think we'll see less of the hobbits in s2, as itll now be Gandalf and Froda taking up that "section".

I dont like how theyve made it seem as if Sauron just constantly stumbles onto good luck (meeting Galadriel at sea, Mt Doom being created, ending up with Celebrimbor whos already starting making the rings to a degree), none of it feels like its his scheming so it defeats the point of his character. 

Its Gandalf.

I can just hear it now.

"A meteor is never late, my dear Frodette, it arrives precisely when it means to."

[DA Baracus]

I don't get Sauron's plan. How did he end up at sea? How did he come across Galadriel? Why did he wish to remain in Numenor? Or were his words carefully planned to convince Galadriel to convince the queen to go to Middle Earth? He did say that Oren and his orcs are his (Sauron's) enemy. Presumably he planned to rule the Southlanders and use them to defeat the orcs? It isn't clear. But then Oren got that traitor lad to use the hilt of what we assume was once Sauron's sword or staff to make Mount Doom erupt, and surely the purpose of that was to give Sauron a furnace to make some rings? 

Also why did he help the elves make the three rings? What does he gain from that? And how do three rings somehow save all of the elves from decomposing? Plus I thought the three elven rings were for three elven kings, yet none of the three are kings or even hinted as being in line to be one. 

Amusing that the Southlands haven't had a king in over 1000 years but Galadriel didn't know this and also very quickly made up her mind that Halbrand was the king. I suppose the explanation is that he's Sauron and so, being a master manipulator, manipulated her, but the show does a terrible job of showing that. Also the Southlanders instantly accepted him as king with no questions. Will he use them in series 2? But then there aren't any Southlands any longer.

Wonder what Isildur will get up to once his horse rescues him? He'll be feeling a bit miffed everyone fucked off without him! His sister found a palantir, and the suggestion is that the old king was using it to speak to someone, but who? I'd guess the elves, since he was seemingly an advocate of them.

I'm not up on lore, so what's in Rhun for Gandalf? Agree that hopefully the Harfoots are pretty much dropped from series 2, as they're pointless and a bunch of arseholes. Once again one of them gave a wee speech about how they stick together, yet not only did they want to leave an entire family behind just because the dad twisted his ankle, they wanted to take the fucking wheels off of his wagon so that they'd be extra fucked! Instead of just getting someone to offer some help for a bit, they wanted to condemn a family to death for a twisted ankle. Yikes!

 

Think they really need to sort the writing for the second series. Far too many inconsistencies and far too much absolute pish (the elves will all die without mithril!!!!). Far too many pointless characters as well. Tighten things up. 

[mishtergrolsch]

50 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I don't get Sauron's plan. How did he end up at sea? How did he come across Galadriel? Why did he wish to remain in Numenor? Or were his words carefully planned to convince Galadriel to convince the queen to go to Middle Earth? He did say that Oren and his orcs are his (Sauron's) enemy. Presumably he planned to rule the Southlanders and use them to defeat the orcs? It isn't clear. But then Oren got that traitor lad to use the hilt of what we assume was once Sauron's sword or staff to make Mount Doom erupt, and surely the purpose of that was to give Sauron a furnace to make some rings? 

Also why did he help the elves make the three rings? What does he gain from that? And how do three rings somehow save all of the elves from decomposing? Plus I thought the three elven rings were for three elven kings, yet none of the three are kings or even hinted as being in line to be one. 

Amusing that the Southlands haven't had a king in over 1000 years but Galadriel didn't know this and also very quickly made up her mind that Halbrand was the king. I suppose the explanation is that he's Sauron and so, being a master manipulator, manipulated her, but the show does a terrible job of showing that. Also the Southlanders instantly accepted him as king with no questions. Will he use them in series 2? But then there aren't any Southlands any longer.

Wonder what Isildur will get up to once his horse rescues him? He'll be feeling a bit miffed everyone fucked off without him! His sister found a palantir, and the suggestion is that the old king was using it to speak to someone, but who? I'd guess the elves, since he was seemingly an advocate of them.

I'm not up on lore, so what's in Rhun for Gandalf? Agree that hopefully the Harfoots are pretty much dropped from series 2, as they're pointless and a bunch of arseholes. Once again one of them gave a wee speech about how they stick together, yet not only did they want to leave an entire family behind just because the dad twisted his ankle, they wanted to take the fucking wheels off of his wagon so that they'd be extra fucked! Instead of just getting someone to offer some help for a bit, they wanted to condemn a family to death for a twisted ankle. Yikes!

 

Think they really need to sort the writing for the second series. Far too many inconsistencies and far too much absolute pish (the elves will all die without mithril!!!!). Far too many pointless characters as well. Tighten things up. 

Christ knows how Sauron planned all that. Master manipulator but raft in the sea at just the right time? That I'd like explained.

The Southlanders didn't mention they hadn't had a king for over 1000 years either and just "Hail to the King"ed him after some random Elf (in their eyes) tells them. No questions asked. No bloodline investigation.

A few episodes after they've established the Southlands hate Elves...knife ears and all that...but no suspicion or questioning etc.

The three Elven rings were meant to be forged after the others, in secret, so Sauron couldn't have any influence over the wearers. Yet here we have Sauron helping the great Celebrimbor how to forge the fuckers. Sauron was meant to have taught Celebrimbor how to make all the other rings, not the elven ones.

 

The two Blue Wizards went south and east I think, not Gandalf to my knowledge. So, if he really isn't Gandalf hell end up being Allatar or Pallando imo.

Actually, after a wee bit of memory refresh the two Blues were said to have come in the Second Age around the forging of the rings and gone east to disrupt Saurons forces and allies but ultimately fail and are either killed or corrupted. So in fairness it could, or should, be a blue wizard.

Maybe they're just giving him Gandalf lines to make it clear he's a good Wizard to the casual fans. Unless he's Olorin...

[Benjamin_Nevis]

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

I don't get Sauron's plan. How did he end up at sea? How did he come across Galadriel? Why did he wish to remain in Numenor? Or were his words carefully planned to convince Galadriel to convince the queen to go to Middle Earth? He did say that Oren and his orcs are his (Sauron's) enemy. Presumably he planned to rule the Southlanders and use them to defeat the orcs? It isn't clear. But then Oren got that traitor lad to use the hilt of what we assume was once Sauron's sword or staff to make Mount Doom erupt, and surely the purpose of that was to give Sauron a furnace to make some rings? 

Also why did he help the elves make the three rings? What does he gain from that? And how do three rings somehow save all of the elves from decomposing? Plus I thought the three elven rings were for three elven kings, yet none of the three are kings or even hinted as being in line to be one. 

Amusing that the Southlands haven't had a king in over 1000 years but Galadriel didn't know this and also very quickly made up her mind that Halbrand was the king. I suppose the explanation is that he's Sauron and so, being a master manipulator, manipulated her, but the show does a terrible job of showing that. Also the Southlanders instantly accepted him as king with no questions. Will he use them in series 2? But then there aren't any Southlands any longer.

Wonder what Isildur will get up to once his horse rescues him? He'll be feeling a bit miffed everyone fucked off without him! His sister found a palantir, and the suggestion is that the old king was using it to speak to someone, but who? I'd guess the elves, since he was seemingly an advocate of them.

I'm not up on lore, so what's in Rhun for Gandalf? Agree that hopefully the Harfoots are pretty much dropped from series 2, as they're pointless and a bunch of arseholes. Once again one of them gave a wee speech about how they stick together, yet not only did they want to leave an entire family behind just because the dad twisted his ankle, they wanted to take the fucking wheels off of his wagon so that they'd be extra fucked! Instead of just getting someone to offer some help for a bit, they wanted to condemn a family to death for a twisted ankle. Yikes!

 

Think they really need to sort the writing for the second series. Far too many inconsistencies and far too much absolute pish (the elves will all die without mithril!!!!). Far too many pointless characters as well. Tighten things up. 

Not sure how Sauron ended up at sea, but I'm assuming it was somehow planned as he intended to trick Galadriel into harnessing their powers to control Middle Earth. I'm sure the intro in the Fellowship of the Ring was narrated by Galadriel, who said "But they were all of them deceived, for another ring was made. Deep in the land of Mordor in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Sauron forged a master ring, and into this ring he poured his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life" . There's no mention of the other rings being forged in Mount Doom. 

Also in that intro, you see Galadriel putting on one of the rings. Sauron needs these rings to be worn by the other races so that he can use the One Ring to manipulate the others. 

Isildur eventually becomes a king (i think) - again in the Fellowship prologue - his father is killed by Sauron but Isildur kills him with the remnants of his father's sword, then takes the One Ring for himself after Elrond tries, and fails to persuade him to lob it into the fires of Mount Doom. 

In short, until Isildur cuts his fingers off, Sauron's long game plan to dominate all of Middle Earth was pretty much coming together by the looks of it.