Criminalizing Cat Calling/Wolf Whistling

[The Moonster]

59 minutes ago, Thorongil said:

People do get carried away with some of this stuff. Yes, some people do behave badly at times, but there needs to be a level of calm. 
 

Whistling at a woman walking down the street is real saddo behaviour, but do I believe it always results in a immense trauma and requires think tanks, navel gazing and psychological self-flagellation from all men because “we are all responsible”? 
 

No. Get a grip. 

It clearly does result in trauma for people, you've had a woman earlier in the thread saying she considers how she walks down the street so that folk don't look at her in a sexual way, that's not right. Me and you are responsible to call it out when we see it, as we would if we saw any other type of harassment or abuse. 

[NotThePars]

I’d like to think that if I was a woman in that situation, I would react as a man would to verbal abuse ie: “Aye, in your dreams, pal” or “You wouldn’t last more than a minute”. That could go some way to diffusing the situation and also, in the case of female workers on site, endear them to their male colleagues

If I were a woman I would simply complete an ocular pat down and eliminate any threats to my safety with akido training.

We need the gay lads to be stepping up here TBH - stroking straight guys hair and  whispering in their ears in bars, feeling their arses and pervy dancing in nightclubs, shouting at lone straight males in the street about their cock size in front of groups of other gay guys etc give it a month and see where we are 
 

Maybe instead of fines or imprisonment we should consider locking offenders on a train carriage filled with rowdy hen parties

[Thorongil]

5 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

It clearly does result in trauma for people, you've had a woman earlier in the thread saying she considers how she walks down the street so that folk don't look at her in a sexual way, that's not right. Me and you are responsible to call it out when we see it, as we would if we saw any other type of harassment or abuse. 

I’m not responsible for anything other than doing my job, paying my bills and looking after my family. 
 

and I’m definitely not accountable for someone else’s deeds on account of having the same chromosome. Or hair colour, or skin colour, or eye colour or anything else.

[Bairnardo]

6 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

It clearly does result in trauma for people, you've had a woman earlier in the thread saying she considers how she walks down the street so that folk don't look at her in a sexual way, that's not right. Me and you are responsible to call it out when we see it, as we would if we saw any other type of harassment or abuse. 

Don't know about that in the real world tbh. Its good if/when folk do, but I don't think you can put it down as a responsibility because you share a gender with an arsehole. Might just be wording, but an arsehole who harasses women is going to have plenty to say to someone who publically nails them for it, and that's hassle most folk neither want nor need. Nor would you be exempt from the following utter shitshow if it were to escalate. 

[The Moonster]

Just now, Thorongil said:

I’m not responsible for anything other than doing my job, paying my bills and looking after my family. 
 

and I’m definitely not accountable for someone else’s deeds on account of having the same chromosome. Or hair colour, or skin colour, or eye colour or anything else.

If you saw someone being racially abused you'd do nothing about it?

 

[Gordon EF]

Aye, the idea that every man shares collective responsibility for preventing or stopping poor behaviour by other men towards women (beyond some vague sense of 'civic responsibility') is nonsense.

We don't think of it in those terms for any other groups or any other offences. Nobody's walking around saying "The vast majority or burglars are men so it's men's responsibility to 'call out' or prevent burglaries and tell their pals to stop burgling".

[The Moonster]

Just now, Bairnardo said:

Don't know about that in the real world tbh. Its good if/when folk do, but I don't think you can put it down as a responsibility because you share a gender with an arsehole. Might just be wording, but an arsehole who harasses women is going to have plenty to say to someone who publically nails them for it, and that's hassle most folk neither want nor need. Nor would you be exempt from the following utter shitshow if it were to escalate. 

It's not about sharing a gender, I'd hope if a woman saw me being abused in some way they wouldn't just turn a blind eye and say "mans problems, not for me to deal with". I'm not talking about going up and confronting these people and causing a fight in every instance, although I do think a lot of these people do need confronted and will generally shite themselves when they are, but you can alert the authorities (whether that's police or the head/HR of a company if it's happening on a business property) and make sure the victim is okay. 

[oneteaminglasgow]

5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Don't know about that in the real world tbh. Its good if/when folk do, but I don't think you can put it down as a responsibility because you share a gender with an arsehole. Might just be wording, but an arsehole who harasses women is going to have plenty to say to someone who publically nails them for it, and that's hassle most folk neither want nor need. Nor would you be exempt from the following utter shitshow if it were to escalate. 

Reality is that you or I, by virtue of being straight, white men, are in a position to do something about this kind of behaviour which other groups aren’t. By not doing anything to confront shite like cat calling if/when we encounter it, are we complicit in allowing it to happen?

[HeWhoWalksBehindTheRows]

I'm doing a job on a building site just now, like f**k I'd pull up some of the units here like. 6ft brick shit house stone masons? Pass please.

[Jambomo]

8 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Aye, the idea that every man shares collective responsibility for preventing or stopping poor behaviour by other men towards women (beyond some vague sense of 'civic responsibility') is nonsense.

We don't think of it in those terms for any other groups or any other offences. Nobody's walking around saying "The vast majority or burglars are men so it's men's responsibility to 'call out' or prevent burglaries and tell their pals to stop burgling".

It’s a culture problem though. Men shout and whistle not just because they think it’s a good idea but often because they are trying to be smart/funny in front of other guys. Burglary is not something they do to get their mates a laugh. Though if my friend was planning to burgle something, I would absolutely tell them to stop.

That’s why it matters that other guys do call them out, to change the idea that it’s something that’s funny or impressive, into the idea that actually it makes you a creepy pervert and it’s not a desirable action. They won’t listen to women or supposed authorities around this because they don’t care what we think. They’ll listen to their mates and other guys.

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jambomo

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Aye, the idea that every man shares collective responsibility for preventing or stopping poor behaviour by other men towards women (beyond some vague sense of 'civic responsibility') is nonsense.

We don't think of it in those terms for any other groups or any other offences. Nobody's walking around saying "The vast majority or burglars are men so it's men's responsibility to 'call out' or prevent burglaries and tell their pals to stop burgling".

I'm not sure burgling someones house is analogous with someone being sexually or racially abused but in any case, if I saw someone burgling a house I would probably alert the police, the same as I would if I saw someone being abused. I'm not saying we should be held responsible by law for dealing with it, but surely any decent person would do something to help rather than shrug their shoulders and say "I'm not responsible"?

 

[Bairnardo]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

It's not about sharing a gender, I'd hope if a woman saw me being abused in some way they wouldn't just turn a blind eye and say "mans problems, not for me to deal with". I'm not talking about going up and confronting these people and causing a fight in every instance, although I do think a lot of these people do need confronted and will generally shite themselves when they are, but you can alert the authorities (whether that's police or the head/HR of a company if it's happening on a business property) and make sure the victim is okay. 

Yes, agree broadly with the bold bit. I just think the ongoing problems we see in the world we all have in common (football) with racial and sectarian abuse, aswell as various other forms, even of the type this thread is about, from the terraces, would tell you that in general terms, even the majority that know the line has been crossed are hesitant to confront a person who has shown themselves willing to participate in such behaviour.... And IMO, thats for good reason. I spoke recently about a junky w****r who came into a phone shop I was in and started getting a bit wide with the lassie working there, and the thoughts I was having re what I would have to do about it if he kicked off. In that scenario I wouldnt have let him get abusive or physical without stepping in, but in my head is 1) I could get hurt. 2) he could get hurt. 3) In every possible explanation, the Police are going to be at my door with the potential for a court appearance, and less likely but possible, recriminations from my employer etc. 

Im a 35 year old father. I don't want any shit in my life and as such, would judge every situation very very carefully and it would have to be pretty extreme before I get involved, and if I did, it wouldn't be because I have perceived some shared responsibility for an arseholes behaviour

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

It’s a culture problem though. Men shout and whistle not just because they think it’s a good idea but often because they are trying to be smart/funny in front of other guys. Burglary is not something they do to get their mates a laugh. Though if my friend was planning to burgle something, I would absolutely tell them to stop.

That’s why it matters that other guys do call them out, to change the idea that it’s something that’s funny or impressive, into the idea that actually it makes you a creepy pervert and it’s not a desirable action.

 

This is a slightly different scenario though, because theres little threat in telling your mate hes being an arsehole in harassing a female and in that scenaio, id agree, get him telt. 

[Gordon EF]

Just now, Jambomo said:

It’s a culture problem though. Men shout and whistle not just because they think it’s a good idea but often because they are trying to be smart/funny in front of other guys. Burglary is not something they do to get their mates a laugh. Though if my friend was planning to burgle something, I would absolutely tell them to stop.

That’s why it matters that other guys do call them out, to change the idea that it’s something that’s funny or impressive, into the idea that actually it makes you a creepy pervert and it’s not a desirable action.

 

I'm not disagreeing. I'm not saying don't tell your pals not to do something stupid/illegal/shitty. And I'm not saying that someone standing by and watching their pals cat call women or sniggering along with it doesn't bear some kind of responsibility. But there have numerous posts about some kind of over-arching 'male responsibility' for this behaviour. And it would seem silly for anyone to suggest anything like that for other behaviours/actions and other groups.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Bairnardo said:

Yes, agree broadly with the bold bit. I just think the ongoing problems we see in the world we all have in common (football) with racial and sectarian abuse, aswell as various other forms, even of the type this thread is about, from the terraces, would tell you that in general terms, even the majority that know the line has been crossed are hesitant to confront a person who has shown themselves willing to participate in such behaviour.... And IMO, thats for good reason. I spoke recently about a junky w****r who came into a phone shop I was in and started getting a bit wide with the lassie working there, and the thoughts I was having re what I would have to do about it if he kicked off. In that scenario I wouldnt have let him get abusive or physical without stepping in, but in my head is 1) I could get hurt. 2) he could get hurt. 3) In every possible explanation, the Police are going to be at my door with the potential for a court appearance, and less likely but possible, recriminations from my employer etc. 

Im a 35 year old father. I don't want any shit in my life and as such, would judge every situation very very carefully and it would have to be pretty extreme before I get involved, and if I did, it wouldn't be because I have perceived some shared responsibility for an arseholes behaviour

If it's escalating to a point that you think physical violence is inevitable then that's obviously a point that police need informed and I wouldn't expect any member of the public to take that into their own hands. We're talking about calling out wee fannies who think it's a good idea to harass women from a distance on building sites or as they pass them in the street, we're not offering every village nutcase out for a square go. 

[Thorongil]

18 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If you saw someone being racially abused you'd do nothing about it?

 

It depends.

[Bairnardo]

Just now, The Moonster said:

If it's escalating to a point that you think physical violence is inevitable then that's obviously a point that police need informed and I wouldn't expect any member of the public to take that into their own hands. We're talking about calling out wee fannies who think it's a good idea to harass women from a distance on building sites or as they pass them in the street, we're not offering every village nutcase out for a square go. 

Aye but in the end of the day, we all know fine well that if you are going to be prepared to create a potential flashpoint by "calling out some wee fanny" there are a myriad of potential unsavoury consequences and you simply cannot blame folk for choosing to avoid it. Not everyone (and I am tempted to say without any evidence, probably not many folk) have the confidence to go down this road. Pals, folk in your company, colleagues where there is some degree of protection afforded to you.... Aye definitely get them telt. A complete stranger being a cock in the street.... Kudos if you choose to call it out, but I cant get behind calling it a responsibility. 

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure burgling someones house is analogous with someone being sexually or racially abused but in any case, if I saw someone burgling a house I would probably alert the police, the same as I would if I saw someone being abused. I'm not saying we should be held responsible by law for dealing with it, but surely any decent person would do something to help rather than shrug their shoulders and say "I'm not responsible"?

 

It's analogous insofar as it's doing something wrong. 

What you're talking about is what I'd call a kind of vague civic responsibility. Just being a decent person and trying to do the right thing. I don't think that responsibility goes up or down depending on how many characteristics I share with the perpetrator or victim. That's why I think it's weird that some folk seem so keen to talk particularly about the responsibility of men to stop this kind of behaviour as if we're collectively responsible, when it would seem ludicrous or offensive to do that with other groups or behaviours.

[Thorongil]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

It's analogous insofar as it's doing something wrong. 

What you're talking about is what I'd call a kind of vague civic responsibility. Just being a decent person and trying to do the right thing. I don't think that responsibility goes up or down depending on how many characteristics I share with the perpetrator or victim. That's why I think it's weird that some folk seem so keen to talk particularly about the responsibility of men to stop this kind of behaviour as if we're collectively responsible, when it would seem ludicrous or offensive to do that with other groups or behaviours.

Indeed. 
 

I think it’s a bit of saviour complex and is so patronising to the group they are telling themselves they are intervening on behalf of. 
 

Women are adults and like male adults can handle most situations themselves without some random member of the public in a metaphorical cape sticking their oar in. 

[Thorongil]

2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Wow. This thread has really brought out some weirdos.

The following crackers are just the start:-

1. Women should "simply" take aikido lessons to defend themselves (NotthePars).
2. Grassing up sexual offenders is a bad thing (scottsdad).
3. Women will lie about being harassed even if it all stopped tonight (Thorongil).
4. It's not really that big a deal. Why do women allow themselves to be mentally affected by it (Thorongil)?
5. Sexual harassment is just like burglary (GordonEF).
6. Why bother with sexual harassment laws when we haven't fixed organised and violent crime (GordonEF).
7. Male entitlement is a good thing (Thorongil).

Then that little lot was followed up by endless claims from several posters that they'd stand and watch sexual harassment against a woman and do absolutely f**k all about it - either at that time or retrospectively by making a formal complaint or offering help.

If anyone wanted to understand the barriers we need to overcome to make sexual harassment against women a thing of the past they only need a quick read of that list to see it in stark detail.

We've got some wrong 'uns on here and no doubt.

That'll do it for me on this thread. Even sharing a thread with these fucking weirdos makes my skin absolutely crawl.

Point 3 is correct though, is it not? It is something that would happen.

Point 7 - I did not advocate “male” entitlement. I am bringing both my daughter and my son up to feel confident to do whatever they wish within the law and applying good judgement. That was clear. That you need to lie suggests you might be in a state because some people on the internet aren’t telling you how right you are.