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Fed up to the back teeth of Richard Gordon on Sportsound telling us definitively both on Saturday and tonight that Arbroath v Kelty is a shoot out for definite qualification if there's a winner. It's not (it might well be but it's not definitely the case). There are still more than 3 other groups where the runner up may get 9 points. Is it beyond their wit to actually employ someone who can count and check the qualification routes?

With there still being 5 games tomorrow night it's not quite as clear as you'd expect at this stage but here's my take on it. I think it's likely that 9 points will be needed to make a runner up qualification but it may be someone sneaks in with 8.

Group A
Hearts are through with a game to spare. Runner up can't get more than 8 points and that only if Stirling Albion beat Peterhead in 90 mins. Anything less and runner up will be 7 points at best and could conceivably be 6pts. Runners up not getting through here.

Group B
Dundee United have already won with a full house. Winners of Arbroath v Kelty will get 9 and likely go through as a best runner up but it's not certain. If it's a draw then whoever wins the penalty shoot out will finish with 8 pts.

Group C
Disrupted by Covid and the fact there are two games tomorrow but Dundee winning the group by beating Forfar seems likely. If they only do so on penalties they'd need something from Montrose too. Forfar likely to finish runner up on 8 but they could nick something of Dundee and get 9 or 10. Indeed it's possible with a Dundee win over Montrose that a draw in the final game would take both them and Forfar through. Certainly would if Forfar win on penalties. Also an unlikely scenario where Montrose beat both Dundee and Ross County to get 10 points and go through.

Group D
Two Livi wins over Raith and Cowdenbeath, combined with a Raith win over Alloa will see both Raith and Livi on 9 points. Or less likely Cowden beating Livi in 90 mins alongside a Raith win over Alloa would leave two sides on 9 too. It's reasonably open this one but quite conceivable that two sides will finish with 9. Will be slightly clearer after the Livi v Raith game tomorrow.

Group E
Another one that's all over the place but an Ayr win over Falkirk, or a Falkirk win over Ayr after beating Edinburgh City tomorrow, combined with Accies beating Albion Rovers will leave two teams on 9 or more.

Group F
Motherwell destined to win the group. Queens Park are likely runners up having finished on 7. We can't beat that. Airdrie could but would need at least 4 points from games against us and Motherwell which is a reach. Nobody's getting through this one as runner up.

Group G
Bonkers group with Killie and Morton both awarded losses without playing. Every chance Kilmarnock win the group by beating Stranraer, although Clyde could still beat them too by beating Morton. Runner up can't get more than 8 so no runner up coming from this one either.

Group H
Not inconceivable three sides could finish with 9 here if Thistle were to beat St Mirren. In all likelihood though St Mirren get something off Thistle to win the group and Dunfermline get a win over Stenhousemuir to progress too.

So basically, groups A, F & G are definitely not providing a runner up. Likely group H will produce a runner up with 9 points and a very good goal difference. Barring a shock there, then two of Groups B, D and E will likely produce a 9 point runner up. If all three do then one of them will go out on goal difference, with potentially Accies worst placed. If two of these groups slip up then Group C could still produce an unlikely 9 point runner up too.

Will update tomorrow...................

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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Fed up to the back teeth of Richard Gordon on Sportsound telling us definitively both on Saturday and tonight that Arbroath v Kelty is a shoot out for definite qualification if there's a winner. It's not (it might well be but it's not definitely the case). There are still more than 3 other groups where the runner up may get 9 points. Is it beyond their wit to actually employ someone who can count and check the qualification routes?
With there still being 5 games tomorrow night it's not quite as clear as you'd expect at this stage but here's my take on it. I think it's likely that 9 points will be needed to make a runner up qualification but it may be someone sneaks in with 8.
Group A
Hearts are through with a game to spare. Runner up can't get more than 8 points and that only if Stirling Albion beat Peterhead in 90 mins. Anything less and runner up will be 7 points at best and could conceivably be 6pts. Runners up not getting through here.
Group B
Dundee United have already won with a full house. Winners of Arbroath v Kelty will get 9 and likely go through as a best runner up but it's not certain. If it's a draw then whoever wins the penalty shoot out will finish with 8 pts.
Group C
Disrupted by Covid and the fact there are two games tomorrow but Dundee winning the group by beating Forfar seems likely. If they only do so on penalties they'd need something from Montrose too. Forfar likely to finish runner up on 8 but they could nick something of Dundee and get 9 or 10. Indeed it's possible with a Dundee win over Montrose that a draw in the final game would take both them and Forfar through. Certainly would if Forfar win on penalties. Also an unlikely scenario where Montrose beat both Dundee and Ross County to get 10 points and go through.
Group D
Two Livi wins over Raith and Cowdenbeath, combined with a Raith win over Alloa will see both Raith and Livi on 9 points. Or less likely Cowden beating Livi in 90 mins alongside a Raith win over Alloa would leave two sides on 9 too. It's reasonably open this one but quite conceivable that two sides will finish with 9. Will be slightly clearer after the Livi v Raith game tomorrow.
Group E
Another one that's all over the place but an Ayr win over Falkirk, or a Falkirk win over Ayr after beating Edinburgh City tomorrow, combined with Accies beating Albion Rovers will leave two teams on 9 or more.
Group F
Motherwell destined to win the group. Queens Park are likely runners up having finished on 7. We can't beat that. Airdrie could but would need at least 4 points from games against us and Motherwell which is a reach. Nobody's getting through this one as runner up.
Group G
Bonkers group with Killie and Morton both awarded losses without playing. Every chance Kilmarnock win the group by beating Stranraer, although Clyde could still beat them too by beating Morton. Runner up can't get more than 7 so no runner up coming from this one either.
Group H
Not inconceivable three sides could finish with 9 here if Thistle were to beat St Mirren. In all likelihood though St Mirren get something off Thistle to win the group and Dunfermline get a win over Stenhousemuir to progress too.
So basically, groups A, F & G are definitely not providing a runner up. Likely group H will produce a runner up with 9 points and a very good goal difference. Barring a shock there, then two of Groups B, D and E will likely produce a 9 point runner up. If all three do then one of them will go out on goal difference, with potentially Accies worst placed. If two of these groups slip up then Group C could still produce an unlikely 9 point runner up too.
Will update tomorrow...................
Spot on SD, the way they reported Dundee Utd as having qualified on 9 points(hadn't won the group at this stage, which they actually acknowledged) after Saturday's win over Arbroath was ridiculous.
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27 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

With there still being 5 games tomorrow night it's not quite as clear as you'd expect at this stage

Had a look myself and this was a significant problem.    Why the f**k are so many games taking place tomorrow.     Tuesday is the automatic night for midweek games and ok you have the TV game + Spartans at home this evening ,  the other 3 games no need.

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25 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Had a look myself and this was a significant problem.    Why the f**k are so many games taking place tomorrow.     Tuesday is the automatic night for midweek games and ok you have the TV game + Spartans at home this evening ,  the other 3 games no need.

Ross County and Dundee should have played each other on Sunday if not for COVID, hence why their games are tomorrow.

Edited by The Master
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Had a look myself and this was a significant problem.    Why the f**k are so many games taking place tomorrow.     Tuesday is the automatic night for midweek games and ok you have the TV game + Spartans at home this evening ,  the other 3 games no need.

I don't see a problem with teams playing on Wednesday if they want to.
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No it's not. Historically there have been loads of midweek games played on Wednesdays, the idea of Tuesday being a default date is a relatively new thing (if it's even a thing). Livi are the only ones voluntarily playing tomorrow anyway.

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1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

Group G
Bonkers group with Killie and Morton both awarded losses without playing. Every chance Kilmarnock win the group by beating Stranraer, although Clyde could still beat them too by beating Morton. Runner up can't get more than 7 so no runner up coming from this one either.

 

Will update tomorrow...................

Clyde and Kilmarnock are both currently on 5, both can end up on 8 points if they win at the weekend. Alternatively it could be Stranraer on 9 and Clyde on 8.

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11 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

No it's not. Historically there have been loads of midweek games played on Wednesdays, the idea of Tuesday being a default date is a relatively new thing (if it's even a thing). Livi are the only ones voluntarily playing tomorrow anyway.
 

Its clearly a thing.  Vast majority of fixtures are played Tuesday and has been the case for a long time,  outside a handful of wrong uns. 

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27 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Its clearly a thing.  Vast majority of fixtures are played Tuesday and has been the case for a long time,  outside a handful of wrong uns. 

Dunfermline played on Tuesday nights under Jim McIntyre because his kid had karate on a Wednesday.

It’s nothing set in stone and as long as both clubs agree then I’m baffled why anyone could give two fucks whether a game is played on a Tuesday or a Wednesday.

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2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Fed up to the back teeth of Richard Gordon on Sportsound telling us definitively both on Saturday and tonight that Arbroath v Kelty is a shoot out for definite qualification if there's a winner. It's not (it might well be but it's not definitely the case). There are still more than 3 other groups where the runner up may get 9 points. Is it beyond their wit to actually employ someone who can count and check the qualification routes?

The Killie group is bonkers. Stranraer could end up winning it with 7 points.

I’m constantly left astounded by football broadcasters and journalists being unable to follow competitions and rules.

You had commentators during Euro 2020 talking about how “complex” the 3rd placed sides were. I understood it after reading about it for 30 seconds so am I a genius or is it actually only confusing for lazy simpletons?

Edited by Cardle is Magic
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, craigkillie said:


I don't see a problem with teams playing on Wednesday if they want to.

Yeah I certainly didnt intend to imply it was a problem, its not. Just that it makes things slightly less certain than usual on a Tuesday at this stage.

49 minutes ago, David W said:

Clyde and Kilmarnock are both currently on 5, both can end up on 8 points if they win at the weekend. Alternatively it could be Stranraer on 9 and Clyde on 8.

True, miscount on my part though dont expect it to change the point. No runner up coming through your group barring some extraordinary results.

33 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Its clearly a thing.  Vast majority of fixtures are played Tuesday and has been the case for a long time,  outside a handful of wrong uns. 

Only since about the mid 90s. I'm old enough to remember wednesdays being the traditional night for midweek football, the clue being in the name. Tuesdays began to be more popular then, mainly because managers preferred the extra days preparation ahead of saturdays than ahead of midweek. And probably because for part time sides who rend to train Tuesday/Thursday it only kills one training session. Wednesdays screw up both.

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Rob1885 said:

Spot on SD, the way they reported Dundee Utd as having qualified on 9 points(hadn't won the group at this stage, which they actually acknowledged) after Saturday's win over Arbroath was ridiculous.

Yeah this. I was listening to it driving away from Motherwell and getting increasingly irate. I like Richard Gordon. He's generally fairly sharp, genuinely interested on the whole of scottish football and Sportsound is generally a good show. It gave good coverage across the pandemic even if it did allow Tom English to play the Hearts spokeperson a bit much.

But this assumption they peddled more than once on saturday evening that 9 points was definite progress in the United group as a best runner up at worst was plain nonsense and didnt even take much more than a cursory look to realise it. Peterhead did once get 9 and not get through and with only three runners up qualifying this year thats even more likely. No disrespect to either Arbroath or Kelty but I find myself hoping it comes to pass one wins and doesn't get through just to leave Sportsound looking daft!

A single goal victory for Arbroath Saturday leaving them on 9 pts and +3 GD will possibly get them in but it may not if Accies win by 3 ogainst Albion Rovers and Dunfermline, St Mirren, Raith, Livingston and Ayr simply get seeded results they should get. Or Dundee let Forfar have some points.

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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13 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

Only since about the mid 90s. I'm old enough to remember wednesdays being the traditional night for midweek football, the clue being in the name. Tuesdays began to be more popular then, mainly because managers preferred the extra days preparation ahead of saturdays than ahead of midweek. And probably because for part time sides who rend to train Tuesday/Thursday it only kills one training session. Wednesdays screw up both.

That's my entire footballing supporting life then.  The mid 90's were a fucking long time ago. 

Edited by parsforlife
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Default day is still Wednesday in Premiership, probably as games often move to preceding Sunday for TV or after EL.

Those renegades Arbroath also play on Wednesdays IIRC.

League Cup tipping points seems to have come around 1990 and 2000:

1984-85       7 = Tue / 31 = Wed
1985-86       6 = Tue / 31 = Wed     (1 = Mon)
1986-87       5 = Tue / 31 = Wed
1987-88    12 = Tue / 24 = Wed
1988-89       8 = Tue / 27 = Wed     (1 = Thu)
1989-90    15 = Tue / 21 = Wed

1990-91    21 = Tue / 15 = Wed
1991-92    22 = Tue / 14 = Wed     (1 = Mon)
1992-93    16 = Tue / 17 = Wed
1993-94     23 = Tue / 13 = Wed
1994-95     15 = Tue / 23 = Wed
1995-96       4 = Tue /    9 = Wed     (1 = Thu)
1996-97    21 = Tue /    9 = Wed
1997-98       7 = Tue /    7 = Wed     (1 = Thu)
1998-99       8 = Tue /    5 = Tue
1999-00    14 = Tue / 11 = Wed
2000-01    32 = Tue /    8 = Wed
2001-02    27 = Tue / 12 = Wed
2002-03    21 = Tue /    8 = Wed     (3 = Thu)
2003-04    29 = Tue /    8 = Wed     (3 = Thu)
2004-05    29 = Tue / 11 = Wed

Edited by HibeeJibee
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29 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

That's my entire footballing supporting life then.  The mid 90's were a fucking long time ago. 

The mids 90's were about last year to a lot of folk - to me Wednesday is still the proper mid week night (as it is the middle of the week) and still cant get my head around games being on a Tuesday. 

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Hopefully morton play this like a friendly and we stand a chance of getting out the group for the first time and probably only time for a while if things ever go back to normal 😆

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Edinburgh were already out, and the result puts Falkirk out. Perhaps more importantly, there's now got to be a good chance that they forfeit their game against Ayr at the weekend, which would mean that Ayr win the group regardless of Accies' result.

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2 hours ago, honestly united said:

The mids 90's were about last year to a lot of folk - to me Wednesday is still the proper mid week night (as it is the middle of the week) and still cant get my head around games being on a Tuesday. 

I thought in recent years, Ayr played on Wednesday nights as part-timers due to the fact that was a normal training night so guys didn't have to change their schedules?

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