johnnydun Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: Just answer me that without some offensive name calling. 3 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: conservative, unpatriotic 3 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: Dundee United 3 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: clowns I am offended. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffo Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 4 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: Well Well. I think Motherwell should play a colt sides in the leagues. I do not have a problem of non Old Firm sides having colt sides also. It is divisive triabalism that keeps Scotland down. It keeps Scottish football down. That is what makes Scottish football fail. A lack of unity. To the other posts. THAT IS WHY SCOTLAND FAILS. Divisive tribalism. OK lets put this as an argument. Of what is going on here,. English clubs in the lower divisions of the League Two getting 10,,000 fans at matches get offended by having to play Man Utd B side,. I still think it is nonsense for them to be offended by that, but fair enough you get 10,000 fans at matches you are a big club' But now clowns supporting a side in Scottish League One getting 400 fans at games think they are the Scottish equivalent of Bradford City or Sunderland,. And that it is a matter of honour to show how big Scottish football is that some League Two Scottish side would be offended at having to play Celtic Colts., REALITY CHECK YOU ARE NOT SUNDERLAND!. You are a part time team who should be delighted and honoured at playing colt sides of big sides, END OF STORY - You are being delusional if you think you are comparable to the English League Two or English League One sides,. I don't think even they make sense for English League One or English League Two sides to be offended. But at least they are big clubs,. Stop thinking that is offensive for Edinburgh City, East Fife, or Cove Rangers to play Celtic Colts or Rangers Colts. IT IS NOT AN INSULT TO PLAY A COLT SIDE. IT IS A COMPLIMENT THAT SCOTTISH FOOTBALL COLT SIDES THINK THAT YOUR SIDE IS A GOOD SIDE TO PLAY FOR SCOTTISH PLAYERS TO DEVELOP. Why are you taking it as an insult as if you are Sunderland, or Bradford City or Coventry City. You are not those sides. You get smaller attendances than Man Utd reserves and you claim it is offensive to play the reserve sides of big sides, GROW UP!! REALITY CHECK! IT IS A COMPLIMENT TO PLAY THE COLT SIDES OF THE BIG SIDES. Get fucked 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 10 hours ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said: FURTHERMORE! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albagubrath Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 17 hours ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said: Only took 5 pages. Sponsors money spread more thinly. The issue with the success of the national team is quality of coaching/new ideas/thinking linked to an unhealthy outlook in life for 15-19 year olds in this country. How many really good players at that age have failed because they could not hack the discipline required? The SFA has performance schools already, do they not? Put them in if it such a good idea - Holyrood, Braidhurst etc. How many players have they discovered, developed in recent years compared to the OF? Hungary, Switzerland, Croatia , Sweden, Ukraine have all performed well. We have had 23 years to spot what is wrong, and still can't see it. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Gilmour (Grange Academy) and Patterson (Holyrood), our best two young players in the Euro squad, both came through the performance school system. Of course you could also argue they came through Rangers' academy . The reality is to produce top players we probably require both routes to be open and for kids to be involved in both simultaneously. I don't think you will produce a top player without the clubs, but that has never been the intention of the performance schools anyway. The clubs might, and will, produce the odd top player without the performance schools - but if the general standard of youth player in the country is improved by the PS system, the statistical likelihood of having more top international level players is also increased. To produce two potentially world class players in 9 years is actually not bad going all things considered. Other notable graduates include Josh McPake, Dapo Mebude, Chris Mochrie, Ethan Ross, Scott Banks , Ethan Erhahon, Harry Cochrane, Dean Campbell and I'm sure many more that I have missed. All of those have also been attached to a club in Scotland during that development period and I'm sure all will have good to very good professional careers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Can we stop mentioning Gilmour and Patterson in the same breath as though they're comparable? They're both roughly the same age, and Gilmour has played more games for the European champions than Patterson has for a Scottish Premiership club. Patterson can't get a game for Rangers ahead of a guy who, despite having a brilliant season, isn't exactly Dani Alves, and he's now being described as "potentially world class". 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahemps Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, albagubrath said: To produce two potentially world class players in 9 years is actually not bad going all things considered. Other notable graduates include Josh McPake, Dapo Mebude, Chris Mochrie, Ethan Ross, Scott Banks , Ethan Erhahon, Harry Cochrane, Dean Campbell and I'm sure many more that I have missed. All of those have also been attached to a club in Scotland during that development period and I'm sure all will have good to very good professional careers. Are we producing more better players though. You have mentioned some names and I don't disagree that they have been helped by the system but are these players better and is there more of them than what we produced prior to the performance schools???? Are the SFA reviewing the data on this to see if it is improving the quality and quantity of players coming through? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Highland Capital said: One thing I've noticed about this "they do it in Spain!" mob is they just pick and choose nations who'd be good anyway and make the evidence fit, regardless of the standard or ethos of their lower leagues, but fail to mention countries like Norway who have had colts for years and haven't qualified for anything since Euro 2000. Or The Netherlands for that matter, saying colt teams work there & pointing at the big successes in the past. Completely ignoring that since colt teams have been introduced just under a decade ago the national team has been complete and utter rubbish. Yes, a third place in 2014 (after a very lucky draw), but other than that papped out in the groups at Euro 2012, a lucky draw in the groups followed by a shambolic last 16 defeat against the Czechs at Euro 2020 and not even qualified for Euro 2016 & WC 2018. They have also gone to some of the lowest positions on the FIFA ranking in decades. Edited June 30, 2021 by Marten 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8MileBU Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, craigkillie said: Can we stop mentioning Gilmour and Patterson in the same breath as though they're comparable? They're both roughly the same age, and Gilmour has played more games for the European champions than Patterson has for a Scottish Premiership club. Patterson can't get a game for Rangers ahead of a guy who, despite having a brilliant season, isn't exactly Dani Alves, and he's now being described as "potentially world class". ^^^Tabloid-esque nonsense. No. No we can’t. They are very obviously Scotland’s two standout young talents at the moment and therefore it’s only natural they are mentioned in the same breath. The comparisons should only be stopped when discussing the merits of a midfielder and a right back. Nobody has ever suggested Tavernier is on par with Dani Alves either so that connotation is a nonsense, but your own words “brilliant season” are a relatively self-explanatory reason why Patterson isn’t getting in ahead of him just yet. By your logic, Gilmour can’t get a regular game ahead of some of Chelsea’s sitting midfielders despite the fact none of them are exactly Xavi? Gilmour appears to be on the cusp of a loan move which to the right team can only enhance his prospects. Patterson would also benefit from a similar move IMO, but my only concern is that Rangers don’t have the squad depth or Russian billions that Chelsea do to allow such a move at the moment. However, I expect Gerrard to give Patterson a bit more game time this coming season. Also, if Tav has a season like last and if the league is won by Christmas again then I think Patterson might be loaned out come January. I also wouldn’t even rule out transfer bids for him over the summer which if the price/add-ons are right will definitely be considered. Edited June 30, 2021 by 8MileBU 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albagubrath Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 59 minutes ago, ahemps said: Are we producing more better players though. You have mentioned some names and I don't disagree that they have been helped by the system but are these players better and is there more of them than what we produced prior to the performance schools???? Are the SFA reviewing the data on this to see if it is improving the quality and quantity of players coming through? I think these are the right questions and I honestly don't know the answer. The SFA were producing annual report cards which they were making available via their website - the last I can find was in 2017 though and there seems little update since then. Dare I say it, that coincides with the arrival of Malky Mackay. Good governance is such an essential part of corporate life - whomever is responsible for ensuring reporting to the shareholders (i.e. us / the clubs) should be clearly told that failing to do so is unacceptable - however I digress from the main point. The stats as reported in winter 2017 were: 44 professional contracts earned 4.5% higher attendance rate for Performance School pupils compared to the school average 9.5% higher National 5’s results compared to the school average 16 out of 20 players selected for Scotland Under-17s European Qualifiers were graduates of the Performance Schools Since August 2017, six players have made their first team debuts https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/winter-term-performance-school-report-card/ I don't know what they were measuring these against by way of KPI benchmarks, nor do I know if these were the only KPIs measured. The SFA are typically opaque on that. I suppose the main issue is that it is always going to be nearly impossible to separate out the value added by the PS system versus the clubs. You could compare PS and non-PS outcomes at each club, however that dismisses the reality that the variables involved in creating a top player will inevitably involve many outside of control (home-life, injury, attitude etc.). I don't know the answer, but I'm not paid the reported £250k salary Mackay was getting (has he been replaced?) to answer this kind of tough question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 After watching their teams fail to qualify for Euro2020 do you think there's people in Athens, Oslo, Belgrade, Sofia, Bucharest and Dublin saying "Scotland's a small country we should run our game like that" Because if there's a crowdfunder to send Neil Doncaster to the Balkans I've got a fiver spare 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Other Foot Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 10 hours ago, LiviLion said: Is there a club tin pot enough to be calling themselves the Scottish Sunderland? Falkirk maybe? Indeed. Either that, or 'the Hufflepuffs of Scottish Football'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukDukGoose Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, 8MileBU said: ^^^Tabloid-esque nonsense. No. No we can’t. They are very obviously Scotland’s two standout young talents at the moment and therefore it’s only natural they are mentioned in the same breath. The comparisons should only be stopped when discussing the merits of a midfielder and a right back. Nobody has ever suggested Tavernier is on par with Dani Alves either so that connotation is a nonsense, but your own words “brilliant season” are a relatively self-explanatory reason why Patterson isn’t getting in ahead of him just yet. By your logic, Gilmour can’t get a regular game ahead of some of Chelsea’s sitting midfielders despite the fact none of them are exactly Xavi? Gilmour appears to be on the cusp of a loan move which to the right team can only enhance his prospects. Patterson would also benefit from a similar move IMO, but my only concern is that Rangers don’t have the squad depth or Russian billions that Chelsea do to allow such a move at the moment. However, I expect Gerrard to give Patterson a bit more game time this coming season. Also, if Tav has a season like last and if the league is won by Christmas again then I think Patterson might be loaned out come January. I also wouldn’t even rule out transfer bids for him over the summer which if the price/add-ons are right will definitely be considered. Chelsea are at a slightly higher level than Rangers, pal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Manhattan Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 1 hour ago, The Other Foot said: Indeed. Either that, or 'the Hufflepuffs of Scottish Football'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highland Capital Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Marten said: Or The Netherlands for that matter, saying colt teams work there & pointing at the big successes in the past. Completely ignoring that since colt teams have been introduced just under a decade ago the national team has been complete and utter rubbish. Yes, a third place in 2014 (after a very lucky draw), but other than that papped out in the groups at Euro 2012, a lucky draw in the groups followed by a shambolic last 16 defeat against the Czechs at Euro 2020 and not even qualified for Euro 2016 & WC 2018. They have also gone to some of the lowest positions on the FIFA ranking in decades. The standard of Spanish football quickly falls off a cliff after a certain point. Also, the third tier is where it splits regionally by province so while the likes of Barcelona B and Castilla play in that tier, they're playing at essentially a local level. It wouldn't be the equivalent of say Hearts Colts playing Alloa or Stirling Albion or even Linlithgow Rose, it'd probably mostly be the equivalent of them playing Leith Athletic. Some people might assume that this system would be akin to ICT and Ross County colt sides joining the Highland League when in-fact it'd be more like them joining the North Caledonian League like they had years ago and that was only in the absence of a reserve lower league at that time. Those sighting Dutch football are also missing the point - they have a completely different ethos and the standard of their lower leagues is also very low. Two summers ago I saw the third tier side Scheveningen narrowly scrape past North Kessock Hotel FC from the Inverness & District League. Even the likes of Clachnacuddin would've smashed them and probably even Fort William would've won. The idea that we can just plonk the colts into our lower leagues as they do abroad suggests that all the lower leagues in these countries are one and the same which isn't true at all. The ironic thing is is in the early-mid 2000s, the Old Firm wanted to join the English Premier League and claimed it would be of a great benefit to Scottish football. Now apparently, for the good of the Scottish game, a team from each within the national leagues isn't enough... Edited June 30, 2021 by Highland Capital 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marten Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 11 minutes ago, Highland Capital said: The standard of Spanish football quickly falls off a cliff after a certain point. Also, the third tier is where it splits regionally by province so while the likes of Barcelona B and Castilla play in that tier, they're playing at essentially a local level. It wouldn't be the equivalent of say Hearts Colts playing Alloa or Stirling Albion or even Linlithgow Rose, it'd probably mostly be the equivalent them playing Leith Athletic. Some people might assume that this system would be akin to ICT and Ross County colt sides joining the Highland League when in-fact it'd be more like them joining the North Caledonian League like they had years ago and that was only in the absence of a reserve lower league at that time. Those sighting Dutch football are also missing the point - they have a completely different ethos and the standard of their lower leagues is also very low. Two summers ago I saw the third tier side Scheveningen narrowly scrape past North Kessock Hotel FC from the Inverness & District League. Even the likes of Clachnacuddin would've smashed them and probably even Fort William would've won. The idea that we can just plonk the colts into our lower leagues as they do abroad suggests that all the lower leagues in these countries are one and the same which isn't true at all. The ironic thing is is in the early-mid 2000s, the Old Firm wanted to join the English Premier League and claimed it would be of a great benefit to Scottish football. Now apparently, for the good of the Scottish game, a team from each within the national leagues isn't enough... Absolutely agreed, the situation differs per country so you can't just copy a system in one country to another. Also another thing on Spain, they've had colt teams for many decades now. Yet until they won Euro 2008 they were arguably the biggest underachievers in international football... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smfc2013 Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 I know it'll have been said but we all clearly feel strongly on this and it's a must to email our respective clubs and state this opinion and promise no financial support if they vote it through. Make our voices heard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 (edited) On 30/06/2021 at 13:48, smfc2013 said: I know it'll have been said but we all clearly feel strongly on this and it's a must to email our respective clubs and state this opinion and promise no financial support if they vote it through. Make our voices heard. "no financial support" ? This clot teams thing is a shit idea but it's hardly a hill worth dying on, especially after we've spent much of the last decade saving the club Edited July 1, 2021 by topcat(The most tip top) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8MileBU Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Merkland Red said: Chelsea are at a slightly higher level than Rangers, pal. Uh-huh… And was anything to the contrary posted like, pal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukDukGoose Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 16 minutes ago, 8MileBU said: Uh-huh… And was anything to the contrary posted like, pal? Well when you said "They are very obviously Scotland’s two standout young talents at the moment and therefore it’s only natural they are mentioned in the same breath. The comparisons should only be stopped when discussing the merits of a midfielder and a right back." One rarely plays for the European champions but looks like he's going to be a regular at Norwich. The other rarely plays for a Rangers team that walked the league. If Patterson was at Chelsea he'd probably be rarely playing for Vitesse Arnhem or in the reserves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sortmeout Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 Has 8Mile actually just tried to say that Gilmour and Patterson are at the same level? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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