Scots on the move

[Gordopolis]

Grealish is a better player than John McGinn, I genuinely don’t think that’s up for debate.

Nothing should be excluded from debate, though if you don't want to debate it, no problems.

In any case, it's hardly like we're comparing Messi and Graeme Shinnie here. The thing that's splitting us here - I think - is the definition of what makes one footballer "better" than another. Is it flicks, tricks, touch and control? Or phenomenal teamwork and leadership? Or a mix of both?

I agree that Grealish has phenomenal ball control and range of passing, but I also see a guy in his mid 20s who is only now on the edge of a big move (same as McGinn). Is Grealish all show pony or an absolute superstar? Somewhere in between, I'd say - often guilty of overplaying but usually great to watch. McGinn is a different animal, and certainly not a dribbling wizard, but undoubtedly one hell of a team player with a strong range of attacking and defensive qualities.
.
In summary: IMO being a sexy attacking footballer doesn't necessarily make you a 'better' footballer than a midfield general like JM (though it almost always commands a higher transfer fee).

[Thorongil]

Jack Grealish goal ratio for Villa is 0.15 per game. 
 

Jack McGinn goal ratio for Villa is 0.12 per game. 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Nothing should be excluded from debate, though if you don't want to debate it, no problems.

In any case, it's hardly like we're comparing Messi and Graeme Shinnie here. The thing that's splitting us here - I think - is the definition of what makes one footballer "better" than another. Is it flicks, tricks, touch and control? Or phenomenal teamwork and leadership? Or a mix of both?

I agree that Grealish has phenomenal ball control and range of passing, but I also see a guy in his mid 20s who is only now on the edge of a big move (same as McGinn). Is Grealish all show pony or an absolute superstar? Somewhere in between, I'd say - often guilty of overplaying but usually great to watch. McGinn is a different animal, and certainly not a dribbling wizard, but undoubtedly one hell of a team player with a strong range of attacking and defensive qualities.
.
In summary: IMO being a sexy attacking footballer doesn't necessarily make you a 'better' footballer than a midfield general like JM (though it almost always commands a higher transfer fee).
 

I’m genuinely not sure if you actually watch football or not. One quick look at the last couple of pages of the respective player threads on Villa’s forum shows the difference in how their own fans think of the two players. Grealish is their star/best player, I don’t think this is up for debate tbh. Liverpool’s star players are Van Dijk and Salah, it doesn’t mean a player like Jordan Henderson isn’t important to their team, or that Salah could play Henderson’s role well.

[Thorongil]

17 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I’m genuinely not sure if you actually watch football or not. One quick look at the last couple of pages of the respective player threads on Villa’s forum shows the difference in how their own fans think of the two players. Grealish is their star/best player, I don’t think this is up for debate tbh. Liverpool’s star players are Van Dijk and Salah, it doesn’t mean a player like Jordan Henderson isn’t important to their team, or that Salah could play Henderson’s role well.

That’s a bit cheeky IMO. There may be many reasons why Grealish is a darling of the Villa fans (who don’t have any monopoly on footballing wisdom) but they also rate McGinn rather highly. 
 

McGinn is better for Villa than he is for Scotland but that’s pretty common in a team you play 40+ games a season with as opposed to a handful with constantly changing systems and personal such as with Scotland.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

12 hours ago, Thorongil said:

That’s a bit cheeky IMO. There may be many reasons why Grealish is a darling of the Villa fans (who don’t have any monopoly on footballing wisdom) but they also rate McGinn rather highly. 
 

McGinn is better for Villa than he is for Scotland but that’s pretty common in a team you play 40+ games a season with as opposed to a handful with constantly changing systems and personal such as with Scotland.

I can tell you what the reasons are: 

1. He’s a youth team product and a local lad/fan.

2. He’s their best player.

I have never said McGinn wasn’t a good player or rated highly. Is he good enough to be a starter for Liverpool and help them win titles? As I’ve said, personally I don’t think so and that there are better options available at a lower price or with more potential, but I hope they sign him and he does well - it could only benefit the national team.

[Empty It]

Jack Grealish goal ratio for Villa is 0.15 per game. 
 
Jack McGinn goal ratio for Villa is 0.12 per game. 

WE'VE GOT MCGINN
SUPER JACK MCGINN
wait, what?

[velo army]

On 25/06/2021 at 17:44, Mr Tourette said:

People saying McGinn isn’t good enough for Liverpool need to remember that Liverpool signed Charlie Adam not so long ago

Who was also nowhere near good enough for Liverpool. 

Liverpool also signed El Hadj Diouff, Andy Carroll and (going back a bit mind) Neil Ruddock (what an agent that man must have had tbf).

I think McGinn would do fine at Liverpool. He's got a phenomenal work rate and tremendous attitude. The transfer fee is nonsense though and attaches unfair pressure. Also, why would you pay £50m for SJM when you can surely get a similar quality player for significantly less? I can see him staying for that reason only.

[Empty It]

Who was also nowhere near good enough for Liverpool. 
Liverpool also signed El Hadj Diouff, Andy Carroll and (going back a bit mind) Neil Ruddock (what an agent that man must have had tbf).
I think McGinn would do fine at Liverpool. He's got a phenomenal work rate and tremendous attitude. The transfer fee is nonsense though and attaches unfair pressure. Also, why would you pay £50m for SJM when you can surely get a similar quality player for significantly less? I can see him staying for that reason only.

What similar quality player could you get for significantly less in your opinion?

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

1 hour ago, Empty It said:

2 hours ago, velo army said:

Who was also nowhere near good enough for Liverpool. 
Liverpool also signed El Hadj Diouff, Andy Carroll and (going back a bit mind) Neil Ruddock (what an agent that man must have had tbf).
I think McGinn would do fine at Liverpool. He's got a phenomenal work rate and tremendous attitude. The transfer fee is nonsense though and attaches unfair pressure. Also, why would you pay £50m for SJM when you can surely get a similar quality player for significantly less? I can see him staying for that reason only.

What similar quality player could you get for significantly less in your opinion?

A player like De Paul is meant to be signing for A.Madrid for €35m. Locatelli rumoured to be valued at between €30-40m. Sabitzer would also be below £50m as he’s in the final year of his deal. There’s just three players off the top of my head but there will be probably about a dozen around Europe. There’s a ‘Premier League’ premium that clubs have to pay due to the wealth of most of the teams in the league meaning they don’t necessarily have to sell.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Bonksy+HisChristianParade

[velo army]

1 hour ago, Empty It said:

2 hours ago, velo army said:

Who was also nowhere near good enough for Liverpool. 
Liverpool also signed El Hadj Diouff, Andy Carroll and (going back a bit mind) Neil Ruddock (what an agent that man must have had tbf).
I think McGinn would do fine at Liverpool. He's got a phenomenal work rate and tremendous attitude. The transfer fee is nonsense though and attaches unfair pressure. Also, why would you pay £50m for SJM when you can surely get a similar quality player for significantly less? I can see him staying for that reason only.

What similar quality player could you get for significantly less in your opinion?

Aye I was more speculating that there must be. It seems that homegrown players in the English top league have their prices massively inflated simply by dint of being homegrown and other factors like selling to competitors.

I like McGinn, but he's not world class or even the class just below that. I can't think of players of the top of my head who are better than him and cost less, as I haven't researched it. I was merely speculating, but as Bonksy has demonstrated evens cursory glance at the market can yield a few names, so there will be more.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

3 hours ago, velo army said:

Aye I was more speculating that there must be. It seems that homegrown players in the English top league have their prices massively inflated simply by dint of being homegrown and other factors like selling to competitors.

I like McGinn, but he's not world class or even the class just below that. I can't think of players of the top of my head who are better than him and cost less, as I haven't researched it. I was merely speculating, but as Bonksy has demonstrated evens cursory glance at the market can yield a few names, so there will be more.

Of course, but for every Sabitzer available at a sensible price, there’s another Ross Barkley or Danny Drinkwater exchanging hands for outrageous money. 

The sums English PL teams spend on players is so inconsequential as to be meaningless now. Besides, Villa seem desperate to spend a fortune on their midfield this season. Smith-Rowe for £30m+ and 22 Premier League appearances…? 

If he’s worth that, and Grealish worth £100m (apparently) then McGinn at £50m is hardly unreasonable by virtue of relative value.

[DAFC.]

McGinn absolutely can play for Liverpool ffs. He is exactly the type Klopp would want in the middle to fit in with the Gegenpress. Maybe not a week-in, week-out starter, but certainly fits in with Klopp’s ideals.

Billy Gilmour was also the best player on the pitch, by quite a considerable margin, in the England game. He is a superstar in the making, but Norwich wouldn’t be a bad move that some think. He’d be the main man there and guaranteed a start, as long as he is fit. That’s a lot better than getting shipped to the Eredivisie to teams like Vitesse. At least he’ll be consistently playing at the highest level.

[Gordopolis]

I’m genuinely not sure if you actually watch football or not. One quick look at the last couple of pages of the respective player threads on Villa’s forum shows the difference in how their own fans think of the two players. Grealish is their star/best player, I don’t think this is up for debate tbh. Liverpool’s star players are Van Dijk and Salah, it doesn’t mean a player like Jordan Henderson isn’t important to their team, or that Salah could play Henderson’s role well.

I do watch, it's just that I see things a bit differently to you by the sounds of it, which is just fine - makes things interesting, after all.

[accies1874]

Apparently Hibs have knocked back a £2.5m bid from Watford for Josh Doig. I'm not sure who Watford's LB is but it would be class seeing Doig doing a Robertson and immediately going from Scotland to starting in the PL.

[DanMc99]

On 27/06/2021 at 09:57, velo army said:

Who was also nowhere near good enough for Liverpool. 

Liverpool also signed El Hadj Diouff, Andy Carroll and (going back a bit mind) Neil Ruddock (what an agent that man must have had tbf).

I think McGinn would do fine at Liverpool. He's got a phenomenal work rate and tremendous attitude. The transfer fee is nonsense though and attaches unfair pressure. Also, why would you pay £50m for SJM when you can surely get a similar quality player for significantly less? I can see him staying for that reason only.

Klopp rarely gets his signings wrong and quite often he improves those players, i see no reason why mcginn couldn't be a good addition for them. not saying he would be a starter each week but i think he could play his part

[2426255]

1 hour ago, accies1874 said:

Apparently Hibs have knocked back a £2.5m bid from Watford for Josh Doig. I'm not sure who Watford's LB is but it would be class seeing Doig doing a Robertson and immediately going from Scotland to starting in the PL.

They signed Danny Rose didn't they?

[Brian Graham’s Lovely Hair]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

They signed Danny Rose didn't they?

I’ve always disliked him since we fell out in Football Manager. 

[accies1874]

They signed Danny Rose didn't they?

So they did. If Rose is their only other option then you'd imagine Doig would play an OK amount, maybe around the same as Hickey last season. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

4 hours ago, accies1874 said:

Apparently Hibs have knocked back a £2.5m bid from Watford for Josh Doig. I'm not sure who Watford's LB is but it would be class seeing Doig doing a Robertson and immediately going from Scotland to starting in the PL.

£2.5m is paltry in English terms, but good to see 1) it’s higher than most non-OF teams are offered and 2) it’s been rejected

Hibs do seem to have an executive that are wily and wise to the efforts of other clubs. Seems like they could walk away with huge money (relatively speaking) for Nisbet and Doig.

I wonder if they won’t want to play their European matches first before selling them on?

[John Lambies Doos]

Looks like Gilmour getting medical at Norwich