Why cant we produce top class forwards?

[woof!]

3 hours ago, Donathan said:

Given how our back 3 actually works, is that really any different to what we have now? The LCB (Tierney) and the RCB (McTominay/Hendry) take turns to push forward into midfield and leave the other one back with Hanley or whoever is the middle CB, effectively creating a traditional 4-5-1/4-4-2

When out of possession we have a back three. The problem is it sits deep and doesn’t engage and we end up a player short in midfield, or more like three players short because our wing backs are so deep, too.

[Scary Bear]

24 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

I wondered how long it would take to bemoan the loss of tanner bas 

I’d have to look up what a tanner ba’ is?

is that like a Mitre Delta?

[Donathan]

32 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's no doubt sacrilege to suggest it but, if we want to play a system that doesn't have room for that, do we just pick one to play LB and get on with it?

While recognising that both are amongst our best players, are either so good that we have to shoehorn them in no matter what if i) the team is more effective in a formation that means one of them has to be left out, ii) keeping them both in causes some chain reaction of 'square pegs in round holes'?

In general, the manager seems too wedded to playing the same formation all the time even when it means asking players to do things they are just not going to do as well (and when there might be better players at the task sitting on the bench in some cases). Not talking about Tierney and Robertson here, really, but a few players the other night in midfield especially seemed well out their comfort zone and not just because of the level they were playing at.

Personally if we wanted to play a back 4 I’d have Tierney at RB. I know it’s not ideal to have a left footed RB, but the defensive part doesn’t really change, you’re still defending against wingers. Going forward you could have him cutting in on his left foot.

 

Can you play Tierney at CB in a 4? Perhaps.

 

Or Tierney LB and Robertson on the wing could be an option.

 

I don’t think you can seriously suggest dropping one of them. 

[Scary Bear]

57 minutes ago, ExiledSaint said:

Aye right, everyone knows that PlayStations don't sell in Wales, Denmark, Norway or Ireland or anywhere else with similar populations but far better recent records. It's poor governance of the game from grass roots to the top boardroom level, and the whole thing needs a ton of investment and a clear purpose to put right.

That said, we have the best crop of players for ages, and there's no reason why we can't set our sights higher. 

Who’s the top class forward who’ll put Denmark and Austria to the sword?

[ICTChris]

Leading scorers in our qualifying campaigns this century - not exaclty loads of top quality international strikers there.

 

2000 - Billy Dodds (4 goals)

2002 - Billy Dodds (3 goals)

2004 - Neil McCann / Kenny Miller (2 goals)

2006 - Kenny Miller (3 goals)

2008 - Kris Boyd / James McFadden (4 goals)

2010 - James McFadden (2 goals)

2012 - Kenny Miller / Steven Naismith (2 goals)

2014 - Robert Snodgrass (2 goals)

2016 - Steven Fletcher (7 goals) - six of them aginst GIbraltar

2018 - Leigh Griffiths / Robert Snodgrass (4 goals)

2020 - John McGinn (7 goals)

[Michael W]

21 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

When did England last produce a world class goalkeeper?

Things like this seem to be cyclical. The cycles just take longer the smaller the nation is, and even longer if you don't have the right development processes in place.

For all you know Aaron Pressley is about to have a breakthrough season at Brentford. Or Kyle Joseph at Swansea.

A fair point they've had prolonged weakness there. But ultimately, many countries of similar size or smaller to Scotland have produced World class or excellent strikers in recent times. For example: 

Macedonia - Pandev

Bosnia - Dzeko

Croatia - Mandzukic

Serbia - Mitrovic

Iceland - Gudjohnsen

Shame there are no prizes for producing LBs. 

[John Lambies Doos]

Kenny Miller

Reminds me of the time when I was playing Fifa with my eldest son, I had gone Scotland. Anyway it was one each and the 92nd min and I was straight through on the keeper. Unfortunately I made the mistake of glancing down at bottom of screen to find I was Kenny Miller...
Yup, over the bar.

[Monkey Tennis]

23 hours ago, No_Problemo said:

I don’t think Adams is remotely below our standards, he just isn’t a goal scoring striker. At the same time though, I can’t really think of many chances that he has had. 

In the tournament he missed two excellent chances and one good one.

[Monkey Tennis]

22 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

He’s manifestly above our standards. His first touch is absolutely unreal. Compare it to Dykes.  

My first touch is absolutely unreal when compared to Dykes'.

[Monkey Tennis]

18 hours ago, ewan14 said:

Kenny Miller

If Kenny Miller had been a reliable finisher, we wouldn't have gone over 20 years without making a tournament.

[Insaintee]

I think that we have produced a few Faddy, Griff and Watt all started out decent but for various reasons didn't to on to do it. At one point Faddy had a better international  strike rate (1-3) than Wayne Rooney. What all three have in common is that they are not "largs approved," and the standard advice given to young future small midfielders  "Take a touch, bring it under control, look for the safe pass," has never played a part of their game. I can remember a coaching manual decrying an Malcom McDonald (yes I'm that old) for scoring a goal with a volley when he could have taken a touch due to there being no one close to him.  The obvious point that taking a touch gives someone the chance to get close to you being ignored and the simple point that as a striker his job is to have the technique to be able to score with one touch.  

Not a huge fan of McCoist but in that terrible film Shot at glory he summed it up perfectly. 

"Just shoot, if you miss don't worry you'll get it next time"  (or words to that effect)

[ArabGaz]

I rather sadly have spent my morning at work trying to compare Cristiano Ronaldo’s international goal scoring record to Scotland. Ronaldo made his debut on 20/08/03 and since that date, Scotland have played 158 matches and scored 198 goals. He alone has 109 goals in 178 games.

The only players to reach double figures in that period are Kenny Miller (16), McFadden (15), McGinn (10), S Fletcher (10) and Naismith (10). We have also benefited from 10 own goals.

Edited June 25, 2021 by ArabGaz

[Gordopolis]

I rather sadly have spent my morning at work trying to compare Cristiano Ronaldo’s international goal scoring record to Scotland. Ronaldo made his debut on 20/08/03 and since that date, Scotland have played 158 matches and scored 198 goals. He alone has 109 goals in 178 games.
The only players to reach double figures in that period are Kenny Miller (16), McFadden (15), McGinn (10), S Fletcher (10) and Naismith (10). We have also benefited from 10 own goals.

Well that's cheerful reading. Cheers!

P.S. Miller and McFadden was the last time it felt like we were comfortably equipped up front. i.e. 2 strikers on the squad in their 20s and on double figures goals-wise.

[ArabGaz]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Well that's cheerful reading. Cheers!

P.S. Miller and McFadden was the last time it felt like we were comfortably equipped up front. i.e. 2 strikers on the squad in their 20s and on double figures goals-wise.

Probably won’t make you feel any better to know that Boyd (7), Snodgrass (7), Maloney (7), D Fletcher (5) and Forrest (5) are the only other players to have scored five or more.

In total I have 59 players (plus OGs) sharing the  198 goals.

[JamesM82]

On 23/06/2021 at 23:41, oaksoft said:

Actually, by the mid 80s we were also struggling to find good strikers.

The 1986 World Cup was a struggle and there were many concerns before we went about where our goals would come from. Those fears were well founded as we scored just once in 3 games with midfielder Strachan getting our only goal.

We barely improved on that in 1990 only scoring only twice in 3 games and one of those was a penalty, the other coming from midfielder McCall.

So the 80s really weren't that great either.

Correct. In the absence of Dalglish, who was near the end by then anyway, our four strikers in the 86 WC squad were Steve Archibald (4 in 27 for Scotland). Graeme Sharp (1 goal, in 1988). Frank McAvennie (1 goal, in the playoff v Australia) and Charlie Nicholas (5 in 20). Nobody in that whole squad ended up with double figures goals in international football (Paul McStay scored 9).

 

Edited June 25, 2021 by JamesM82

[Monkey Tennis]

Even the good strikers of former eras were rarely prolific.

Joe Jordan, for instance, scored huge goals for Scotland.  He scored in each of the huge 70s qualifiers against Czechoslovakia and he scored at three separate World Cup finals tournaments.

However, he only scored 11 goals altogether in over 50 caps.  Dalglish is our record scorer with 30 goals. It's a decent figure, but plenty sides seem to routinely boast forwards with plenty more.

Really deadly strikers are of course, pretty rare.  Christ, it would be great to have one though.  It would make a huge difference to our chances of reaching, then progressing in tournaments.

[JamesM82]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Even the good strikers of former eras were rarely prolific.

Joe Jordan, for instance, scored huge goals for Scotland.  He scored in each of the huge 70s qualifiers against Czechoslovakia and he scored at three separate World Cup finals tournaments.

However, he only scored 11 goals altogether in over 50 caps.  Dalglish is our record scorer with 30 goals. It's a decent figure, but plenty sides seem to routinely boast forwards with plenty more.

Really deadly strikers are of course, pretty rare.  Christ, it would be great to have one though.  It would make a huge difference to our chances of reaching, then progressing in tournaments.

Goal tallies have generally accelerated since the 60s/70s/80s because there are more internationals played and more of them are against San Marino et al. e.g. Cristiano Ronaldo has scored 109 goals in 178 internationals; Eusebio scored 41 in 64. Similar strike rate, in fact Eusebio's is slightly higher, but Cristiano has played almost three times as many games. That's partly because Portugal have been in just about every tournament during his career, whereas the only tournament Eusebio went to was the 1966 WC (where he was top scorer), but it's also because there are more qualifying games (+Nations League) nowadays.

The damning indictment of our forwards post-Dalglish is that not only has his  record not been broken, nobody has even come within hailing distance of it, despite having loads of games against San Marino, Faroes, Gibraltar and so on.  And our number of games have held up during the 2000s and 2010s even though we never qualified - we played 89 in the 1970s, 87 in the 1980s, 92 in the 1990s and 86 each in the 2000s and 2010s.

[HalfCutNinja]

Top class strikers btw. See if Derek Riordan had the attitude and professionalism and workrate of a top player he would have played for one of the top clubs in the world.

Take Dirk Kuyt, Riordan had more talent in his bad foot than Kuyt in his good. Ability-wise a much, much better player, completely different level.

Scotland have actually had a few like that, Goodwillie, Boyd, McCormack, O'Connor. All could have been really, really good players at a tremendous level and top players for Scotland.

So we do produce them they're just neddy wee fannies who don't realise their potential as a result. All those guys could easily have played for a top 6 EPL side with the right attitude.

 

 

[HalfCutNinja]

Jason Cummings is another one.  We have produced talented strikers they just are total mentalists

[HalfCutNinja]

Griffiths of course. That's a pile of them, mostly Hibs players, and crazy Edinburgh neds for some reason.

Take all those players give them the attitude, workrate, professionalism and dedication of a Dirk Kuyt every single one of them is a better player than he was capable of a career at least as good at the same level.

Maybe what we should be looking at is how we put the right structure around these guys and help them fulfill their potential rather than why don't we produce them becase we do they just don't achieve what they should cause of external factors.