Time to go Steve Clarke

[Bing.McCrosby]

Well changed my mind again (lucky the thread still here). That was a shambles last night. Dinosaur long ball football again on the biggest stage. We were never even remotely competitive. Ukraine are not a great team, and most of their players haven't played in months.

Trying to shoehorn players into a system built around including Tierney, without Tierney available.

Yes results have improved, but we've also got the best group of players we have had in a long time.

I dont believe we can't be organised better than this.

His contact isn't up for a while so he's not going to be removed. He should do the honorable thing and resign for the good of the team.

Even the Clarke fan boys can't be saying that was good??

[Donathan]

14 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Well changed my mind again (lucky the thread still here). That was a shambles last night. Dinosaur long ball football again on the biggest stage. We were never even remotely competitive. Ukraine are not a great team, and most of their players haven't played in months.

Trying to shoehorn players into a system built around including Tierney, without Tierney available.

Yes results have improved, but we've also got the best group of players we have had in a long time.

I dont believe we can't be organised better than this.

His contact isn't up for a while so he's not going to be removed. He should do the honorable thing and resign for the good of the team.

Even the Clarke fan boys can't be saying that was good??

Last night was absolutely dreadful and lessons do need to be learned but I think removing the manager would be a knee jerk at this juncture.

 

I’d give him the nations league group and barring a disaster there, the euro qualifiers as well. I suppose they’re part of the same competition really. The target has to be not only to qualify for euro 2024, but to reach the knockout stages. 

[G51]

He’s at the stage now where a lot of managers get to once they’ve been at a team for a while: everyone knows how he’s going to play, and teams are planning for it. Ukraine knew exactly what we’d do yesterday and they set up to combat it. 

So now we need to go and show we can play and win a different way. Whether that’s 4-3-3, or a tweak to the 3CB system, whatever. If we can’t do that, then it’s only going one way.

[2426255]

This always happens, people just throwing their toys out of the pram after a defeat where hopes were so high.

@BingMcCrosbyyou have changed your mind a couple of times now in the last 12 months so I'm sure you'll change it back when we get some good results.

On 23/06/2021 at 09:08, BingMcCrosby said:

Overall performances and results have been poor.

We managed to get to this tournament by an excellent draw with serbia. A game we should have won in the 90mins. That along with the England game is our only good performances under Clarke.

Hes produced some good performances when our backs to the wall. But thats it. He's unable to win games at home, we always look like the away team.

He got us to a tournament for the first time in 23 years, but we were not good. 2 home games and 0 points, its unforgivable.

Hes already made a terrible start to the next qualifying. Its time we parted ways, hes never going to be a good manager for us.

Last night as Souness says was dark ages stuff. Also the wrong team and tactics. 

But the worst thing of all was the reluctance to change things. We were on top in spells for the first half. Croatia started to control the game and we left the players out there to rot. Rather than freshen things up and get back at them. 

The changes were to litte to late and now were out. Arguably the worst team in the tournament.

Yes turkey and North Macedonia lost all 3 games, but neither played a home game. And we played 2. 

Nothing against the guy, I want every scotland manager to succeed. But its been poor overall. It really has.

Strachan when we went deserved to go, but he had the team playing better than this. Were going nowhere.

 

 

On 12/11/2021 at 21:48, BingMcCrosby said:

Im more than happy to admit I got it wrong.

Its a brilliant run of results for us and there's obviously no chance of clarke going anywhere. 

Hes changed the team and personnel and brought in some younger players. Also shown a bit more flexibility with his tactics. And most importantly got results.

 

 

48 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Well changed my mind again (lucky the thread still here). That was a shambles last night. Dinosaur long ball football again on the biggest stage. We were never even remotely competitive. Ukraine are not a great team, and most of their players haven't played in months.

Trying to shoehorn players into a system built around including Tierney, without Tierney available.

Yes results have improved, but we've also got the best group of players we have had in a long time.

I dont believe we can't be organised better than this.

His contact isn't up for a while so he's not going to be removed. He should do the honorable thing and resign for the good of the team.

Even the Clarke fan boys can't be saying that was good??

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Wee man, I've got you on ignore. Everyone has. I dont read anything you write, your a total fandan

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, G51 said:

He’s at the stage now where a lot of managers get to once they’ve been at a team for a while: everyone knows how he’s going to play, and teams are planning for it. Ukraine knew exactly what we’d do yesterday and they set up to combat it. 

So now we need to go and show we can play and win a different way. Whether that’s 4-3-3, or a tweak to the 3CB system, whatever. If we can’t do that, then it’s only going one way.

I think yesterday showed hes not able or willing to change things. He sat and watched us get run over. Just the style of football alone is enough, he should leave himself.

[2426255]

23 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I think yesterday showed hes not able or willing to change things. He sat and watched us get run over. Just the style of football alone is enough, he should leave himself.

Steve Clarke changed personnel and strategy at different points in the game. He said in the post match press conference that it wasn't the plan to play direct up to Dykes and that he did his best to try and get us playing through midfield but the Ukrainian set up made it difficult for that to happen in the first half and we were two nil down before we had a chance to feel the benefit of his half time changes. 

25 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Wee man, I've got you on ignore. Everyone has. I dont read anything you write, your a total fandan

I'm not writing back to you mate. It's more for the benefit of the rest of the audience.  You just don't like me because I made you look like a complete tit. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by 2426255

[craigkillie]

People will just say any old shite on here in the aftermath of a defeat. The starting tactics were wrong, and the way we finished was wrong when we could have had an extra forward on the park instead of slinging it to Hanley.

However, claiming we didn't try to change it in the first half is nonsense. After about 25 minutes McGinn dropped deeper into a three to try to get more of a grip on the game, and for a bunch of that period Gilmour and McGregor swapped places to try to put someone with legs on the right hand side to cover Hickey, who was getting roasted every time they went near him. The fact they didn't work as intended doesn't mean they didn't happen.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

People will just say any old shite on here in the aftermath of a defeat. The starting tactics were wrong, and the way we finished was wrong when we could have had an extra forward on the park instead of slinging it to Hanley.

However, claiming we didn't try to change it in the first half is nonsense. After about 25 minutes McGinn dropped deeper into a three to try to get more of a grip on the game, and for a bunch of that period Gilmour and McGregor swapped places to try to put someone with legs on the right hand side to cover Hickey, who was getting roasted every time they went near him. The fact they didn't work as intended doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Who do you think was at fault for getting the set up and changes wrong?

Whats your take on our style of play?

[G51]

12 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I think yesterday showed hes not able or willing to change things. He sat and watched us get run over. Just the style of football alone is enough, he should leave himself.

The style of football is good when we aren't pumping long balls to strikers. When we get it down and play a bit it's actually very nice to watch. Clarke gets a reputation as a defensive coach because he's good at coaching shape, but it's not really the case IMO. His teams can play.

There's still a lot of work for Clarke to do here. I'm nowhere near wanting him sacked yet, but this does feel like a tipping point. The blueprint to beat us, and beat us pretty handily, is out there now. We need to adapt to it and keep teams guessing a little bit more. If we don't, then we'll be in a bit of trouble.

The games that we've played under Clarke, with tournament qualification or progression on the line, we've mostly failed to deliver, save the penalty shoot outs. He needs to improve this, for sure.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, G51 said:

The style of football is good when we aren't pumping long balls to strikers. When we get it down and play a bit it's actually very nice to watch. Clarke gets a reputation as a defensive coach because he's good at coaching shape, but it's not really the case IMO. His teams can play.

There's still a lot of work for Clarke to do here. I'm nowhere near wanting him sacked yet, but this does feel like a tipping point. The blueprint to beat us, and beat us pretty handily, is out there now. We need to adapt to it and keep teams guessing a little bit more. If we don't, then we'll be in a bit of trouble.

The games that we've played under Clarke, with tournament qualification or progression on the line, we've mostly failed to deliver, save the penalty shoot outs. He needs to improve this, for sure.

I agree with most of that, I mean the style of play last night. Also against the Czechs. He seems to revert to this in big games.

I dont think Clarke is a terrible manager, just think his time is over with us.

In reality its not as he will continue, but i wish he wouldn't.

[craigkillie]

Who do you think was at fault for getting the set up and changes wrong?
Whats your take on our style of play?

I'm not sure I understand the point in this question given that it is fairly obvious who is responsible for the tactics, and the rest of it was basically answered in the post you replied to.

The gambles in the starting line-up (Hickey, Cooper, a half-fit Gilmour) didn't work out, and we should have stuck with the 3-4-3 system rather than going back to a front two. We ended up having less out balls from defence, and only two defenders ever willing to play a pass into midfield (Robertson and McTominay) and that left the others just slinging it long. The changes at half-time tried to move away from that but we still couldn't play through them. Then we thrived a bit when the game got chaotic, but couldn't create a proper chance, which I put more down to the players. After that had calmed down we should have flung one of the forwards on for the last 10 minutes even if neither of them are likely good enough.

[Bully Wee Villa]

It isn't, in any way, "time to go". I would like to experiment with ditching five at the back, though. Genuinely think Robertson could do a job on the wing, as could Hickey if Tierney or Robertson is unavailable. I also don't like two up front, would save that for when we are desperately chasing the game or playing a Faroes type team.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bully Wee Villa

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

I'm not sure I understand the point in this question given that it is fairly obvious who is responsible for the tactics, and the rest of it was basically answered in the post you replied to.

The gambles in the starting line-up (Hickey, Cooper, a half-fit Gilmour) didn't work out, and we should have stuck with the 3-4-3 system rather than going back to a front two. We ended up having less out balls from defence, and only two defenders ever willing to play a pass into midfield (Robertson and McTominay) and that left the others just slinging it long. The changes at half-time tried to move away from that but we still couldn't play through them. Then we thrived a bit when the game got chaotic, but couldn't create a proper chance, which I put more down to the players. After that had calmed down we should have flung one of the forwards on for the last 10 minutes even if neither of them are likely good enough.

I dont agree with the majority of that, but fair enough.

I never really seen us thriving at anypoint either.

[G51]

6 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I agree with most of that, I mean the style of play last night. Also against the Czechs. He seems to revert to this in big games.

I dont think Clarke is a terrible manager, just think his time is over with us.

In reality its not as he will continue, but i wish he wouldn't.

The tactic of last resort, when it all completely goes to shit, is to lump it to Dykes. That's true of a lot of teams though (in fact, almost every team when you think about it). 

 

[accies1874]

Last night kind of makes you re-evaluate stuff like the back five, playing Dykes, having McGinn as your most advanced midfielder and playing a goalkeeper and CCB who are really poor at playing out, but they've all been key to us getting to this position so it would be foolish ripping it all up and starting again after such an enjoyable few months.

Clarke's largely done well at progressing this side since he came in and I trust him to continue that, hopefully starting on Wednesday, but the similarities between the Croatia and Ukraine matches don't reflect well on him at all.

[FK1Bairn]

8 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I dont think Clarke is a terrible manager, just think his time is over with us.

As much as I and many others think you're wrong, you're entitled to your opinion. Nobody is denying Clarke's set up and tactics were wrong. But hindsight is wonderful. It's not Clarke's fault the defenders failed to drop back and defend a ball over the top, pick up runners and it's not his fault McGinn missed that sitter. 

As much as Scotland were poor last night barring a few decent passages of play in the second half, Ukraine were much much better than I expected them to be. I suspect most of the Scotland players had the wrong mindset before the game, thinking keep it tight and go for it later once Ukraine start to tire and struggled to get out of it until it was too late. 

[Lex]

Not for me. He’s earned the right at another crack to qualify for the Euros.
Failure to qualify and it’s certainly time to go.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, FK1Bairn said:

As much as I and many others think you're wrong, you're entitled to your opinion. Nobody is denying Clarke's set up and tactics were wrong. But hindsight is wonderful. It's not Clarke's fault the defenders failed to drop back and defend a ball over the top, pick up runners and it's not his fault McGinn missed that sitter. 

As much as Scotland were poor last night barring a few decent passages of play in the second half, Ukraine were much much better than I expected them to be. I suspect most of the Scotland players had the wrong mindset before the game, thinking keep it tight and go for it later once Ukraine start to tire and struggled to get out of it until it was too late. 

From reading the match thread there are many others that also agree with me.

I was pleased with clarkes appointment initially, and I dont think he's been terrible for us. At times we have played well.

I just think most of the big games we seem to revert to this long ball knock it up to dykes and try and win a flick down stuff. Its something with the technical players we have in midfield that is just a waste for us. And if thats the go to tactic when the chips are down, its probably always going to be that way.

Also the formation, again at times its been very effective. But without the players to play it why is he sticking with it.

We went out last night with a whimper, a tight well contested game I could live with. But that was bad.

In fairness clarke has shown throughout hes willing to change things. In terms of bringing some younger players in and giving them the opportunity, which plenty of our previous managers seemed very reluctant to do so.

Were stuck with him anyway, hopefully he can turn thing around. But I'd rather someone else took the reins personally.

Before im asked somebody like maybe Bielsa, he would get us trying to play thats for sure. And at his age might fancy another International job.

Or Lucien Favre, who i wish we had went for when he was available. Might still be possible to poach him from the Swiss.

 

[Loominous]

I think Steve Clarke has been the best thing that's happened to Scotland and I wouldn't support calls to change things because last nights game didn't go well.

• He has created a good club like feeling amongst the players.
• Reconnected supporters to the national team.
• His results have been really good overall including getting us to Euro 2020 and the 2022 World Cup Playoff.
• He has involved young players.
• Trusted Scottish based players.
• Developed the team to one that is capable of playing a really nice style of football since Euro 2020.

I don't really get why anyone would want him punted just now.