Time to go Steve Clarke

[DanMc99]

Just now, HibeeJibee said:

He'll be given WC 2022 and Euro 2024 qualifying if he's still here. Former looks a tall order though with 4pts dropped home v Austria and in Israel.

His challenge is turning "hard to beat" into "win v quality".

yep thats the big step needed. I do believe we will improve if he sets up more positive but even then its tough but certainly not impossible.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

4 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Can you explain what you mean then, than people who disagree with you "have lost the run of themselves, if they ever had it in the first place"? If its not a slight on mental heath then what is it? 

Strachan never had 2 attempts for the same tournament, One of them set up by a previous manager.

Strachan had a WC and a EC, and half a failed campaign to get ready.

SC had half a failed campaign, and is 30% through a new campaign.

He got us through two tricky playoffs, and with a half-cut team that was dead on its feet and half a striker, almost got us to League A in the Nations League.

There are huge areas to improve upon - namely Plan B, and a formation that doesn't work in many situations, but let's not forget that only a couple of years ago we were getting battered by Kazakhstan, and struggling past San Marino. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[forameus]

I think it's pretty clear that there's absolutely zero chance he'll get punted given that they already extended his contract before a ball was kicked.  Had we got pumped 8-0 in all three games, maybe the tide would turn, but the performance was nowhere near bad enough for that.  

Personally I think the extension was a stupid move.  I wouldn't have him out now, but if we completely shit the bed on World Cup Qualifying, then I think a discussion needs to be had.  But with the extension, that won't happen.  Basically I'm keen not to get into the weird situation we had with Strachan, where there was at least one point (possibly two) where he perhaps should have been punted, then he ended up going on what was probably a higher point.  God forbid we're proactive.

[Bearwithme]

It was clearly an achievement qualifying for the current tournament (assisted by reaching the play-offs under McLeish). Also the performance against England was very good. Overall I'm a bit disappointed by our displays in the Euros and there are already concerns about World Cup qualifying. However, I don't think for one second that Clarke should be sacked at this point. We'll see how the World cup games go.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

7 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

13 teams qualify for the WC from UEFA.  On what planet would we be *likely* to qualify for the WC with those odds?  That's quite literally your EC last 16, with three removed.

For as brilliant as Wales have been in the last few years, they haven't been able to qualify for the WC.

A WC qualification for Scotland, at this stage, would probably be the biggest achievement in our history.  

There's no harm in being ambitious, but let's not be expectant? 

I fully agree that qualifying for the World Cup from Europe is difficult and would be an incredible achievement. The point is that people are posting about how ‘we will be at least very close to qualifying for the World Cup and talking down the other sides such as Austria and Denmark who are demonstrably better than us and are the type of side we’d have to beat to qualify. There just seems to be a total disconnect from how good we actually are. Suddenly we’ve got Billy Gilmour so we’ll give Israel the run around as well. Clarke should be given time to continue to develop the team and hopefully we continue to progress but the current WC group was gone with the dropped points to Israel and drawing with Austria at home IMO.

[DanMc99]

1 minute ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I fully agree that qualifying for the World Cup from Europe is difficult and would be an incredible achievement. The point is that people are posting about how ‘we will be at least very close to qualifying for the World Cup and talking down the other sides such as Austria and Denmark who are demonstrably better than us and are the type of side we’d have to beat to qualify. There just seems to be a total disconnect from how good we actually are. Suddenly we’ve got Billy Gilmour so we’ll give Israel the run around as well. Clarke should be given time to continue to develop the team and hopefully we continue to progress but the current WC group was gone with the dropped points to Israel and drawing with Austria at home IMO.

so your saying you don't think that the midfield containing gilmour mcginn and mcgregor will improve us against teams like israel?

the reason we've been poor against israel is our lack of ability to keep the ball and take the sting out of games.

[craigkillie]

9 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

I fully agree that qualifying for the World Cup from Europe is difficult and would be an incredible achievement. The point is that people are posting about how ‘we will be at least very close to qualifying for the World Cup and talking down the other sides such as Austria and Denmark who are demonstrably better than us and are the type of side we’d have to beat to qualify. There just seems to be a total disconnect from how good we actually are. Suddenly we’ve got Billy Gilmour so we’ll give Israel the run around as well. Clarke should be given time to continue to develop the team and hopefully we continue to progress but the current WC group was gone with the dropped points to Israel and drawing with Austria at home IMO.

Only if you want to deliberately misinterpret what is actually being said. The phrase I used was "at least get close to qualifying for the World Cup", which to me means either making the play-offs or narrowly missing out on them. At no point did I talk down Denmark, and there isn't really any "demonstrable" way that Austria are better than us given that we drew with them a few months ago. They are maybe slightly better, but not miles ahead.

[Salt n Vinegar]

Had a quick look at oddschecker "best odds" ... Not looking good for the WC folks. 

For finishing in the top 2 in the group...

Denmark 1/20

Austria 8/13

Scotland 6/4

I dearly hope the bookies are spanked, but as far as Scotland games go, it's fair to say that they have taken more off me than I've taken off them. 

[Norrie82]

I see no reason to fear Austria and believe we can still win a play off berth. 

[craigkillie]

22 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Can you explain what you mean then, than people who disagree with you "have lost the run of themselves, if they ever had it in the first place"? If its not a slight on mental heath then what is it? 

Your saying people have lost control of their mind, if they ever had control of their mind. 

Its piss poor patter.

It is a fairly common phrase which means to get carried away, or exceed your limitations - a perfect description of a sudden belief that Scotland should be turning up and rolling teams over at this level, for example. It's commonly used online and you already know this.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/idiom/lose-run-yourself

[DanMc99]

3 minutes ago, Norrie82 said:

I see no reason to fear Austria and believe we can still win a play off berth. 

if we approach it with fear and caution that'll be our undoing, its what stops us turning draws into wins.

i'm banking on clarke allowing us to play a bit more freely and positively now. the england game has to be the blueprint going forward.

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Only if you want to deliberately misinterpret what is actually being said. The phrase I used was "at least get close to qualifying for the World Cup", which to me means either making the play-offs or narrowly missing out on them. At no point did I talk down Denmark, and there isn't really any "demonstrable" way that Austria are better than us given that we drew with them a few months ago. They are maybe slightly better, but not miles ahead.

Well yes, I’d expect to finish third in the group, I’m not sure how you can consider that close to qualifying for the World Cup though . By your logic we were also ‘close to qualifying’ for the last World Cup as well. Finishing third is just meeting expectations which I’m sure we’ll do. 

The demonstrable way is that they’re ranked higher than us and just qualified for the last 16, beating a decent side like Ukraine in the process. Yes, we took a fortunate point off them at Hampden, which they would be much happier than us about. They are slightly better than us, not miles better, but definitely better.  We just drew with England as well, are they not better than us either then? 
 

[Aufc]

There is no way Clarke should be sacked. It is clear he has the respect of the players which is a massive bonus as there are less and less call offs. He has got us to our first finals in a long time. There have been some positives along the way.

However, last night showed up his weakness. Yes he has found a system that got us there but he has no plan B. As mentioned elsewhere, we are not good enough to play the same system no matter who we play. Czech and Croatia both played the exact same way against us and dominated us. It was clear last night that after 20 minutes the system wasnt working. We were being dominated in the middle of the park and modric was getting too much space yet he continued with the system. They had one man up front yet we kept the 5 at the back. This resulted in them finding so much space in the middle of the park and being able to play through us. They pressed us high which meant we just hit the ball long and lost it. 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, craigkillie said:

It is a fairly common phrase which means to get carried away, or exceed your limitations - a perfect description of a sudden belief that Scotland should be turning up and rolling teams over at this level, for example. It's commonly used online and you already know this.

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/idiom/lose-run-yourself

So I've lost control of myself, if I ever had control to begin with?

And thats not an attempt to discredit someone's opinion by questioning their mental heath? 

It is, you know it is. Stop being a complete nob.

Its not relevant in a football discussion.

I think your opinion on Clarke is swayed by him managing your club team. And so you have always liked him. So I think your perhaps biased.

Your welcome to your opinions on him. I disagree, results and performances have not been good. Player selection has been poor.

Just look at gilmour, he wouldn't even have been in the squad if it weren't for injuries. He plays one game and the discussion becomes, how can we play without gilmour.

Everyone could see it apart from Clarke, who preferred the likes of mcgregor and fleck. 

[ArabFC]

2 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Overall performances and results have been poor.

We managed to get to this tournament by an excellent draw with serbia. A game we should have won in the 90mins. That along with the England game is our only good performances under Clarke.

Hes produced some good performances when our backs to the wall. But thats it. He's unable to win games at home, we always look like the away team.

He got us to a tournament for the first time in 23 years, but we were not good. 2 home games and 0 points, its unforgivable.

Hes already made a terrible start to the next qualifying. Its time we parted ways, hes never going to be a good manager for us.

Last night as Souness says was dark ages stuff. Also the wrong team and tactics. 

But the worst thing of all was the reluctance to change things. We were on top in spells for the first half. Croatia started to control the game and we left the players out there to rot. Rather than freshen things up and get back at them. 

The changes were to litte to late and now were out. Arguably the worst team in the tournament.

Yes turkey and North Macedonia lost all 3 games, but neither played a home game. And we played 2. 

Nothing against the guy, I want every scotland manager to succeed. But its been poor overall. It really has.

Strachan when we went deserved to go, but he had the team playing better than this. Were going nowhere.

Yes. Let us in the eternal quest for the perfect manager sack this latest incumbent and give someone else the chance before sacking them to let the next guy have a go before…

… we finally stumble upon the guy that picks the exact team that every fan would’ve picked and manages to get results with it.

Alternatively known as the guy that doesn’t exist!

I wouldn’t have played Armstrong last night. I wouldn’t have played Dykes. I would’ve picked Gilmour far sooner. I’d use McTominay in the position he plays week in week out. I’m gutted we lost both games at Hampden.

I also, however, have the sense to recognise that Clarke is a good manager and that if we sacked him we’d almost certainly end up with a downgrade.

Lets grow up a little and recognise that building a good international team takes time.

[craigkillie]

34 minutes ago, Bonksy+HisChristianParade said:

Well yes, I’d expect to finish third in the group, I’m not sure how you can consider that close to qualifying for the World Cup though . By your logic we were also ‘close to qualifying’ for the last World Cup as well. Finishing third is just meeting expectations which I’m sure we’ll do. 

The demonstrable way is that they’re ranked higher than us and just qualified for the last 16, beating a decent side like Ukraine in the process. Yes, we took a fortunate point off them at Hampden, which they would be much happier than us about. They are slightly better than us, not miles better, but definitely better.  We just drew with England as well, are they not better than us either then? 
 

There's a difference between finishing a close 3rd (ie taking it to the last game and being within a point or two) and finishing a distant third (ie what we ended up with in the Euros group). The former is the bare minimum, the latter is a failure.

[Ken Deans]

43 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Yes. Let us in the eternal quest for the perfect manager sack this latest incumbent and give someone else the chance before sacking them to let the next guy have a go before…

… we finally stumble upon the guy that picks the exact team that every fan would’ve picked and manages to get results with it.

Alternatively known as the guy that doesn’t exist!

I wouldn’t have played Armstrong last night. I wouldn’t have played Dykes. I would’ve picked Gilmour far sooner. I’d use McTominay in the position he plays week in week out. I’m gutted we lost both games at Hampden.

I also, however, have the sense to recognise that Clarke is a good manager and that if we sacked him we’d almost certainly end up with a downgrade.

Lets grow up a little and recognise that building a good international team takes time.

It would help if who we do pick had a morsel of tactical awareness. Sadly lacking at the moment. If Bertie hasn't put us off going down the foreign coach route for all time then that opens up better options. Do you see things getting better with Stevie at the helm?  He'll get the rest of the WC qualifiers of course but lessons were there to be learned after the first game. They weren't 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Ken Deans said:

It would help if who we do pick had a morsel of tactical awareness. Sadly lacking at the moment. If Bertie hasn't put us off going down the foreign coach route for all time then that opens up better options. Do you see things getting better with Stevie at the helm?  He'll get the rest of the WC qualifiers of course but lessons were there to be learned after the first game. They weren't 

Exactly, this hes the best we can get mentality i just don't understand.

Hes one of the best Scottish managers, but were not producing great managers like we used to.

Its not like if we get a new manager we would turn to absolute crap overnight. We still have good players who you can see are able to be organised and press and defend together.

Clarkes not the guy to build a good attacking team tho. This much is clear by now.

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

50 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Yes. Let us in the eternal quest for the perfect manager sack this latest incumbent and give someone else the chance before sacking them to let the next guy have a go before…

… we finally stumble upon the guy that picks the exact team that every fan would’ve picked and manages to get results with it.

Alternatively known as the guy that doesn’t exist!

I wouldn’t have played Armstrong last night. I wouldn’t have played Dykes. I would’ve picked Gilmour far sooner. I’d use McTominay in the position he plays week in week out. I’m gutted we lost both games at Hampden.

I also, however, have the sense to recognise that Clarke is a good manager and that if we sacked him we’d almost certainly end up with a downgrade.

Lets grow up a little and recognise that building a good international team takes time.

I think there are two points here. I am not happy at the Euros performances and I think the draw at Wembley is hiding some weaknesses, however you do risk getting a lower quality manager if you sack Clarke, so per haps persevere through the WC.

More importantly what last night showed up is that the players are simply not good enough. Midfield is supposed to be a strength and it was nowhere near the Croatian midfield in terms of quality.

Despite their bloated salaries, players like Armstrong, McGregor (good goal last night), Dykes , O'Donnell and McKenna are just not of an international level to help the team to progress.

[woof!]

There has been an improvement under Clarke but he has better players at his disposal than previous managers. If Strachan had the current squad I think he’d probably have done better.