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Time to go Steve Clarke


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23 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

I don't think you can fairly disconnect Paw Broon's tenure. I know we are looking at his performance from 2000 onward but given what he achieved before, in no way should he be behind Levein, Strachan, McLeish or even Smith on a subjective list ie not one assessed by win ratios.

For me, Brown would be 2nd behind Clarke for the 93-99 part of his reign. The 98 World Cup qualifying campaign in particular was great to watch.  Some brilliant football was played in those games.

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6 hours ago, Donathan said:

5. Craig Levein (The 2014 World Cup qualifiers were horrendous, but he at least came close to Euro 2012. We were a last minute dodgy penalty to the Czechs away from a winnable playoff against Montenegro)

4-6-0 casts such a cloud it obscures most memories of Levein's reign. But I was absolutely fuming after that game, the ref was a disgrace 😠

 

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Just now, Lurkst said:

4-6-0 casts such a cloud it obscures most memories of Levein's reign. But I was absolutely fuming after that game, the ref was a disgrace 😠

 

I always remember Leveins attempted justifucation after the game.

Rubin Kazan had played the same formation against Barcelona and had stink fested a victory.

That Barcelona team reads like a whos who of football at that time, just unbelievable. And he compares that to us playing the Czechs.

He was an utter wally

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Brown qualified us for two championships in a row, and came very close to taking us to a third. For that alone he's above Clarke. I love Clarke, but it's a nonsense to put Brown below anyone on that list based purely on his last campaign. 

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Brown qualified us for two championships in a row, and came very close to taking us to a third. For that alone he's above Clarke. I love Clarke, but it's a nonsense to put Brown below anyone on that list based purely on his last campaign. 
Yep, a travesty.
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Congratulations to Clarke for the most recent result. He's a complete rollercoaster of a manager. And the last two summers have been horrific but everytime he is under pressure he comes up with a big result. And round and round we go. At least mctominay is back in midfield and he's changed away from that awful formation 

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14 hours ago, edinabear said:

Congratulations to Clarke for the most recent result. He's a complete rollercoaster of a manager. And the last two summers have been horrific but everytime he is under pressure he comes up with a big result. And round and round we go. At least mctominay is back in midfield and he's changed away from that awful formation 

The last 2 Summers have been disappointing, not horrific. At least we were in the position for them to be disappointing with our last qualification in 1998 and our last play off in 2003. 
 

 

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2 minutes ago, stuart87 said:

The last 2 Summers have been disappointing, not horrific. At least we were in the position for them to be disappointing with our last qualification in 1998 and our last play off in 2003.

After scraping through the Nations League play-offs to qualify, we did as well as expected at the Euros in 2021; the only folk who thought we should do better were Scots. It was a bit disappointing, but the only way we'd have been considered to have underperformed would've been if we'd been battered, Eire 2012 style.

The World Cup performance against Ukraine was disappointing, but has context after the games that followed - we were one of the nations who were badly out of form for whatever reason during that window. Eire was genuinely horrific; maybe as bad as Kazakhstan. However, despite being awful, the team somehow staggered through the Armenia games with full points, and gave themselves a realistic chance to make amends. It was bad, but they deserve some sort of credit for not losing the heid and flinging away more points, like Armenia did in Yerevan.

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3 consecutive play-offs isn't the job requirement according to Steve Clarke's contract, but it's still a good achievement. In order to get an automatic extension he has to reach Euro 2024 so maybe it's helpful to have his job on the line. There is also a risk he could move on of course. Would anyone object to him getting an extension beyond Euro 2024 now? 

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4 hours ago, 2426255 said:

3 consecutive play-offs isn't the job requirement according to Steve Clarke's contract, but it's still a good achievement. In order to get an automatic extension he has to reach Euro 2024 so maybe it's helpful to have his job on the line. There is also a risk he could move on of course. Would anyone object to him getting an extension beyond Euro 2024 now? 

On your last point, I think it really depends on the draw we get & subsequent results. 
I think he’s doing a fantastic job & don’t doubt his man-management skills in the least, everyone wants to play for him, which hasn’t always been the case under previous incumbents, we had a couple of poor results in the summer, but I think he’s realised that his normal tactics won’t work in every situation & he’s adapted now. 
In short, I’ve persuaded myself to give him a ten year contract. Never felt so good about a Scotland squad . 

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Strachan improved Scotland but had a ceiling. Stupidly, much of that was self imposed by how stubborn he was about everything, from refusing to play certain players to refusing to drive the team forward after gaining monentum. The draw in Ireland, against a pretty rank Ireland team, really sticks out. Folk say that Ireland beat Germany in that campaign, but so what? We can't control what other teams do. Had we won in Ireland, their win against Germany would have been irrelevant. Instead, Strachan absolutely shat it in Dublin.

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On 01/10/2022 at 19:11, DA Baracus said:

Strachan improved Scotland but had a ceiling. Stupidly, much of that was self imposed by how stubborn he was about everything, from refusing to play certain players to refusing to drive the team forward after gaining monentum. The draw in Ireland, against a pretty rank Ireland team, really sticks out. Folk say that Ireland beat Germany in that campaign, but so what? We can't control what other teams do. Had we won in Ireland, their win against Germany would have been irrelevant. Instead, Strachan absolutely shat it in Dublin.

It was weird with Strachan.  They probably should have got rid of him after the campaign you spoke of.  We didn't really look like we were going anywhere, and like you say we'd thrown away probably the best chance we'd ever had to qualify (that was the first year of the expanded Euros I believe).  Although having Poland and Germany in the group was tough, there was absolutely no reason why we shouldn't have finished 3rd.  He shat it in Dublin, and Ireland did enough.  After that I seem to remember it was a pretty popular decision for him to GTF, but they kept him on.  Then the 2018 campaign was arguably better.  Started horrendously with four points from four games, but we finished so, so strongly and came up just short.  At that point he was probably in a stronger position than 2 years previously, and maybe could feel slightly hard done by to go.  Still, on balance the right decision, although at a slightly unfair time.

On 01/10/2022 at 13:47, 2426255 said:

3 consecutive play-offs isn't the job requirement according to Steve Clarke's contract, but it's still a good achievement. In order to get an automatic extension he has to reach Euro 2024 so maybe it's helpful to have his job on the line. There is also a risk he could move on of course. Would anyone object to him getting an extension beyond Euro 2024 now? 

I'd be very keen for our managers to just be given contracts that end after each tournament summer, so just the two and a bit years.  Not to say that if we don't qualify it's a firing, but we should have a list of targets each candidate needs to meet, and if they don't meet those we shouldn't be hanging around to limit the potential of the next guy.  For Clarke and the next two years though, if he doesn't reach Euro 2024, it's going to take a very brave and patient board not to let him go.  If we don't make it, we'll have fucked a pot 2 spot in a qualifying group AND a playoff.  That's unlikely at this stage, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, and we shouldn't just be handing out extensions when it could still go horribly wrong.

If we hit the end of next year and we've qualified automatically, by all means talk about an extension.  Or if we get there via the playoffs the next March, go for it.  We've been too guilty in the past of handing out weird extensions at weird times, and hanging onto failing managers too long.  Let's be a bit more ruthless and make our managers earn their next go at it if they want it.

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I've liked the way the National team manager's contract has been handled generally. I suspect that's largely because Steve Clarke has been fairly successful so there hasn't been any difficult decision to make. I remember there were a lot of questions/complaints when his contract was extended in September '21 after the defeat in Denmark off the back of Euro 2020 even although that was an automatic consequence of reaching the Euros. 

It's in the grey area where the contract will be interesting: So If Steve Clarke is dealt a difficult Euro 2024 draw, finish 3rd and then we ultimately don't make it through the Euro '24 play-offs or alternatively if we have a shocking start to Euro 2024 qualifying will he be allowed to stay the length of his contract - how will things play out then? Context hasn't really needed to be considered. In black and white he's failed once and succeeded once on his primary objective and only effectively has one life left (reaching Euro 2024).

He hasn't really been tipped for other managerial jobs lately but you'd think a few people have been interested along the way as he has done pretty well across various different measures. That said, I don't think there is a massive risk associated with him leaving to take a job elsewhere so from that point of view I can see why people might want to adopt a wait and see approach.

If the SFA choose to extend his contract before the outcome of Euro 2024 qualifying is known I wouldn't be up in arms about it but the SFA will be opening themselves up to criticism should things not go to plan so I think they'll wait and see what happens. 

Edited by Loominous
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I would argue that contractually requiring a Scotland manager to make tournaments, especially World Cups, is a terrible idea for that reason. Even with the expansion of the World Cup, there are only 16 spaces available for Europe and I don't think it's some national disgrace if we, say, lose out in a play-off to another similarly strong opponent.

Similarly, I wouldn't say bumbling to a Euros despite a poor qualifying campaign, and then losing every game 5-0 in a winnable group, would mean that the manager has to be kept on for the next campaign.

I'd hope there's a bit more nuance to the selection process than that.

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7 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I would argue that contractually requiring a Scotland manager to make tournaments, especially World Cups, is a terrible idea for that reason. Even with the expansion of the World Cup, there are only 16 spaces available for Europe and I don't think it's some national disgrace if we, say, lose out in a play-off to another similarly strong opponent.

Similarly, I wouldn't say bumbling to a Euros despite a poor qualifying campaign, and then losing every game 5-0 in a winnable group, would mean that the manager has to be kept on for the next campaign.

I'd hope there's a bit more nuance to the selection process than that.

Aye, that's kind of what I mean. Is there nuance to give him an extension now or to sack him before his contract is up. Is it he's made 3 consecutive playoffs, pot 2 and Nations League A.? Is it he fucked it against Ukraine and missed a great opportunity to qualify for the World cup? or is the decision just taken at the end of his current contract?

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12 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I would argue that contractually requiring a Scotland manager to make tournaments, especially World Cups, is a terrible idea for that reason. Even with the expansion of the World Cup, there are only 16 spaces available for Europe and I don't think it's some national disgrace if we, say, lose out in a play-off to another similarly strong opponent.

Similarly, I wouldn't say bumbling to a Euros despite a poor qualifying campaign, and then losing every game 5-0 in a winnable group, would mean that the manager has to be kept on for the next campaign.

I'd hope there's a bit more nuance to the selection process than that.

I didn't say that, I just said specific aims for each cycle.  I'd expect for the Euros we should now be qualifying each time, but for the World Cup the playoffs are probably a realistic aim with qualification as a stretch objective.  Obviously within that there's nuance and it isn't that simple, but I think with our current position, we're likely not going to be getting to the Euros with a poor qualifying campaign, short of every other nation in the group having a complete shitemare.

The point is just to not hand out long 4+ year contracts to managers if they're going to turn around after 2 and be a disaster.  I don't think offering a rolling-ish 2 year contract is that much of a shift, and allows us to be a bit more flexible than we've been in the past.

29 minutes ago, Loominous said:

It's in the grey area where the contract will be interesting: So If Steve Clarke is dealt a difficult Euro 2024 draw, finish 3rd and then we ultimately don't make it through the Euro '24 play-offs or alternatively if we have a shocking start to Euro 2024 qualifying will he be allowed to stay the length of his contract - how will things play out then? Context hasn't really needed to be considered. In black and white he's failed once and succeeded once on his primary objective and only effectively has one life left (reaching Euro 2024).

Personally I think that's kind of where we've gone wrong in the past.  Leaving a manager hanging on so that we end up punting him in some weird halfway area where there's f**k all chance of achieving anything in the current campaign.  I know you can argue that it gives them more time to put a plan in place for when it matters, but I'm not sure that ever materialises.  

Campaigns seem long given the spell of time they take up, but it's really not too many games.  To actually turn things around, you'd likely have to act after the first two games, and that's not going to happen.  Clarke will - and should - get this entire campaign regardless of what happens.  Once a result is guaranteed, then we can either start talking about a new contract if he wants it, or what's next

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2 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Is it he fucked it against Ukraine and missed a great opportunity to qualify for the World cup?

I'd argue it'd be incredibly harsh to do so for that given the entire approach from everyone involved in that game was an absolute travesty.  

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11 minutes ago, forameus said:

I'd argue it'd be incredibly harsh to do so for that given the entire approach from everyone involved in that game was an absolute travesty.  

I agree with you but you can bet your bottom dollar If we start crap in Euros qualifying fans will say that kind of thing. They will also say get someone else before it's too late and we screw up our pot 2 seeding. I think the SFA would back him in adversity as he's earned them some decent money through his successes in reaching the Euros, Nations League A and improving attendances.  

Edited by 2426255
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