Time to go Steve Clarke

[Busta Nut]

Is there anything more Scottish than arguing the manager could still be punted when we are in the middle of a winning run and looking good for a good finish in the qualifying group?

[KingRocketman II]

16 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

Is there anything more Scottish than arguing the manager could still be punted when we are in the middle of a winning run and looking good for a good finish in the qualifying group?

regardless of the thread topic, it is the thread to discuss his short-comings. I don't see anyone currently shouting for him to be punted - based on the results and where we sit in the group that would be crazy. But is is a thread to air views asking why performances on the whole tend to be quite poor and why can't we kick on from the occasional very good performance given the players we have at our disposal. 

By suggesting that if you are in any way critical of the manager you want him punted is a hugely simplistic take on everything. The world of Facebook memes. 

Why are the team performances so inconsistent from one game to the next and within periods of the same game? That is the question that remains unanswered and why does there appear to be very little progress given consistency of formation, shape and squad/team selection?

[git-intae-thum]

Starting to look like he has the key ingredient that most of our last umpteen managers have lacked.

Spoiler

He is a jammy f@cker

And long may it continue

[2426255]

10 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

regardless of the thread topic, it is the thread to discuss his short-comings. I don't see anyone currently shouting for him to be punted.

Aye right, as if we should just ignore the thread title, It's the best example of a punter throwing his toys out the pram you'll ever see.

We weren't born yesterday, this thread was never designed to be a discussion of his short comings so don't try and kid us on now. Also I'm not letting you hide behind the word 'currently'.

On 23/06/2021 at 13:13, KingRocketman II said:

therefore thank you Clarke for your efforts and for getting us to a tournament (not forgetting the stumbling input of McLeish) - but it is time to move on. I would say before any more WC qualifiers but he will v likely remain for the next batch, and invariably we will be out of the reckoning. Then Clarke will probably move onto the English Championship. 

The first sign of trouble and you'll be back on the Steve Clarke out train. Pure laugh really. 

On 23/06/2021 at 15:05, BingMcCrosby said:

Nobody's saying we want Clarke taken out the back and shot.

Just a new manager with better ideas. 

 

On 24/06/2021 at 19:54, BingMcCrosby said:

Just to confirm, the absolute pile on me is just for wanting a different scotland manager. Internet bully's fire in 

 

On 02/09/2021 at 09:57, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

We are operating at a level well below the sum of our parts.  I don't think that is setting expectations particularly high.

More accomplished managers could achieve far more with this group of players.

 

On 04/09/2021 at 21:46, Ro Sham Bo said:

Surely nobody can defend this moron now. Imagine giving him another 4 years. Spectacular incompetence even by SFA standards. 

The man should be sacked in the changing rooms. 

 

On 06/09/2021 at 13:04, Ken Deans said:

Well if you think we're doing fine am happy for you. Sadly the SFA agrees with you. Happy with this shambles? Fill yer boots.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by 2426255

[AJF]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

. Aye right, as if we should just ignore the thread title, It's the best example of a punter throwing his toys out the pram you'll ever see and this thread. We weren't born yesterday, this thread was never designed to be a discussion of his short comings so don't try and kid us on now. Also I'm not letting you hide behind the word 'currently'.

The first sign of trouble and you'll be back on the Steve Clarke out train. Pure laugh really. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4 of those 6 comments came before we went on a 4 match winning run that has dramatically changed our standing in the group, so I would hardly class them as "current" given those 4 matches make up 40% of our qualifying fixtures. The other two also came after the first win of that streak, a 1-0 home victory against Moldova.

Personally I don't think it was unreasonable for people to have doubts about Clarke at that time, it was looking very bleak. Now, things are looking much better.

It shows you how quickly football changes

[2426255]

1 minute ago, AJF said:

4 of those 6 comments came before we went on a 4 match winning run that has dramatically changed our standing in the group, so I would hardly class them as "current" given those 4 matches make up 40% of our qualifying fixtures. The other two also came after the first win of that streak, a 1-0 home victory against Moldova.

Personally I don't think it was unreasonable for people to have doubts about Clarke at that time, it was looking very bleak. Now, things are looking much better.

It shows you how quickly football changes

It also shows you how quickly peoples opinion changes and how fickle and short sighted fans can be if they aren't getting what they want. The key is to look beyond the results in the short term and to see if what we are doing will get us where we want to go longer term - not change your view after a handful of results.

What's the value in King Rocketmans II's opinion if it's Clarke out in September, but Clarke in by October?  

 

[2426255]

Bing McCrosby wanted Clarke out based on results/performances against Slovakia, Israel, Austria, Croatia and the Czech Republic. 6 games! it's so knee jerk and short sighted. He couldn't handle the disappointment as his expectations increased and through his toys out the pram.

Edited October 14, 2021 by 2426255

[AJF]

1 minute ago, 2426255 said:

It also shows you how quickly peoples opinion changes and how fickle and short sighted fans can be if they aren't getting what they want. The key is to look beyond the results in the short term and to see if what we are doing will get us where we want to go longer term - not change your view after a handful of results.

What's the value in King Rocketmans II's opinion if it's Clarke out in September, but Clarke in by October?  

 

Football fans are allowed to change their opinion though. Their feelings and emotions are literally dictated by what happens on the field. Everyone is the same in that regard.

When you say they should look beyond the results in the short term, I dare say many of them did. Prior to the Moldova match, we were not playing particularly well and we were on a pretty poor run of results extending back to (but not including) the Serbia play off victory. The argument could be made we are still not playing particularly well, but we are finally getting the results that we need.

So, my argument is it was not simply a "handful" of results, it was the best part of a year. If King Rocketman's opinion is now changed to that they'd like to see Clarke stay, then I'd say that's natural given the upturn in results.

[2426255]

11 minutes ago, AJF said:

Football fans are allowed to change their opinion though. Their feelings and emotions are literally dictated by what happens on the field. Everyone is the same in that regard.

When you say they should look beyond the results in the short term, I dare say many of them did. Prior to the Moldova match, we were not playing particularly well and we were on a pretty poor run of results extending back to (but not including) the Serbia play off victory. The argument could be made we are still not playing particularly well, but we are finally getting the results that we need.

So, my argument is it was not simply a "handful" of results, it was the best part of a year. If King Rocketman's opinion is now changed to that they'd like to see Clarke stay, then I'd say that's natural given the upturn in results.

• It was very emotional - they were upset and threw their toys out the pram like a spoilt kid and so this thread was generated without thought, just an emotional reaction.
• Fans can change their opinion, but if their doing it on a monthly basis what value does it hold?
• There were 6 games that have essentially led to this thread being generated. Slovakia, Israel, Austria, Israel, Czech Republic, Croatia.

I called out those that clearly wanted rid of the manager, lots of fans had their doubts but chose to wait a bit longer - the guys I highlighted shot their load rapido because they couldn't control their disappointment and that's what I take issue with.

The fact that King Rocketman II and Bing McCrosby are trying to disguise their emotional knee jerk response as a critical evaluation of Steve Clarke is pathetic. 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by 2426255

[KingRocketman II]

8 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Starting to look like he has the key ingredient that most of our last umpteen managers have lacked.

  Hide contents

He is a jammy f@cker

And long may it continue

he does indeed seem to have a bit of luck on his side. I think as a team we have been very unlucky in the past

[craigkillie]

4 of those 6 comments came before we went on a 4 match winning run that has dramatically changed our standing in the group, so I would hardly class them as "current" given those 4 matches make up 40% of our qualifying fixtures. The other two also came after the first win of that streak, a 1-0 home victory against Moldova.
Personally I don't think it was unreasonable for people to have doubts about Clarke at that time, it was looking very bleak. Now, things are looking much better.
It shows you how quickly football changes

There were lots and lots of posts from the summer saying that we were basically already out of the World Cup, despite literally sitting second in the group. When I pointed out we were still second to folk it was all "aye for now, wait until we've played the September triple header". And guess what, we were still second and you didn't hear much from them.

[AJF]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

There were lots and lots of posts from the summer saying that we were basically already out of the World Cup, despite literally sitting second in the group. When I pointed out we were still second to folk it was all "aye for now, wait until we've played the September triple header". And guess what, we were still second and you didn't hear much from them.

Personally, I also thought our chances of claiming second at that point were slim as well. Looking at our form up until that point in the Nations League, our opening WC Qualifiers and the Euros I was pessimistic. That we came out of that triple header with 6 points was at least 2, probably 3 more points than I was anticipating.

I didn't go as far as saying I thought Clarke should go and I felt we should stick with him further, but I don't think it was at all unreasonable that others felt his time was up when you considered our form over a decent period of time.

Edited October 14, 2021 by AJF

[2426255]

4 minutes ago, AJF said:

Personally, I also thought our chances of claiming second at that point were slim as well. Looking at our form up until that point in the Nations League, our opening WC Qualifiers and the Euros I was pessimistic. That we came out of that triple header with 6 points was at least 2, probably 3 more points than I was anticipating.

I didn't go as far as saying I thought Clarke should go and I felt we should stick with him further, but I don't think it was at all unreasonable that others felt his time was up when you considered our form over a decent period of time.

How in any context can you call for a manager to be sacked after 6 disaapointing results?

Edited October 14, 2021 by 2426255

[Skyline Drifter]

10 minutes ago, AJF said:

Personally, I also thought our chances of claiming second at that point were slim as well. Looking at our form up until that point in the Nations League, our opening WC Qualifiers and the Euros I was pessimistic. That we came out of that triple header with 6 points was at least 2, probably 3 more points than I was anticipating.

I didn't go as far as saying I thought Clarke should go and I felt we should stick with him further, but I don't think it was at all unreasonable that others felt his time was up when you considered our form over a decent period of time.

A 'decent period of time' being about 6 months, during which time we'd played 10 games, losing only 4 (2 of which were at the actual Euro finals) and completely ignoring the context of the form that immediately preceded it?

[AJF]

2 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

How in any context can you call for a manager to be sacked after 6 disaapointing results?

I never called for him to be sacked, but for those that did, 6 matches in International football is a long time and given that there are much fewer matches played compared to domestic football, disappointing results are a lot more damaging as you have less games to turn things around.

Additionally, for me it wasn't just 6 matches, it was over the course of about 10 months. From when we lost away to Slovakia on 15/11/20 until we lost to Denmark on 01/09/21, we played 9 competitive matches, winning 1 of them which was against The Faroes.

Of course there are results in there that weren't unexpected, but every game we never won (probably other than the England match) was disappointing.

[2426255]

2 minutes ago, AJF said:

I never called for him to be sacked.

Well why didn't you call for him to be sacked?

5 minutes ago, AJF said:

Additionally, for me it wasn't just 6 matches, it was over the course of about 10 months. From when we lost away to Slovakia on 15/11/20 until we lost to Denmark on 01/09/21, we played 9 competitive matches, winning 1 of them which was against The Faroes.

I was talking about the people who were wanting Clarke out after the Euros. You can frame things any way you want, spin results (1 win in 9) or 10 months with one win. The bottom line is that it's knee jerk and rooted in emotion, not thought. Finding facts that fit an argument, skewing them to put the team in the worst light.

[AJF]

15 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

A 'decent period of time' being about 6 months, during which time we'd played 10 games, losing only 4 (2 of which were at the actual Euro finals) and completely ignoring the context of the form that immediately preceded it?

For me it was a period of 9 matches over around 10 months (assuming we are not including friendly matches anyway).

And I suppose your post helps me realise how differently those results can be interpreted depending on what view point I'm looking at it from. Only 4 losses in 10 sounds a lot better than 1 win in 9 anyway 

I think my main point here is that I don't necessarily think it was unreasonable for people to believe his time was up, while at the same time I also don't think it was unreasonable for people to believe we should've stuck by him, which is how I felt.

[AJF]

3 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Well why didn't you call for him to be sacked?

I was talking about the people who were wanting Clarke out after the Euros. You can frame things any way you want, spin results (1 win in 9) or 10 months with one win. The bottom line is that it's knee jerk and rooted in emotion, not thought. Finding facts that fit an argument, skewing them to put the team in the worst light.

I never called for him to be sacked because I felt we were capable of doing much better and I was willing to give him more time. Mind you, I think a new 5 year contract was maybe a bit too much time at that stage, but you get my point 

[2426255]

18 minutes ago, AJF said:

I never called for him to be sacked because I felt we were capable of doing much better and I was willing to give him more time. Mind you, I think a new 5 year contract was maybe a bit too much time at that stage, but you get my point 

The new contract was preset before the Euros, he gets us to a tournament he gets and extension to keep his job at two tournaments. It wasn't a complicated thing. 

Quote

"Stage two is quite a good way to put it," Clarke said. "You come in as Scotland head coach and you get the two tournaments. Basically your brief is that you've got to qualify for the tournaments. It was nice to get the first qualification done and the reason for extending was just getting another tournament to keep it at two tournaments. We got that monkey off our back and it's now time to do that more consistently. I have two tournaments to try and do that."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/aug/24/scotland-manager-steve-clarke-signs-contract-extension-until-euro-2024

Edited October 14, 2021 by 2426255

[2426255]

Anyone who actually thought about whether sacking Steve Clarke after the Euros would come to the conclusion that it was a shit idea. The fact is that people such as King Rocketman II and Bing McCrosby won't just accept they got it wrong and let their emotions take over leading to them chucking their toys out the pram. Worse is how they are trying to climb down by pretending this was all just a critical evaluation of Steve Clarke's performance as a manager is hideous and hilarious in equal measure because it obviously wasn't ever a critical evaluation.