Time to go Steve Clarke

[2426255]

7 minutes ago, Lex said:

 

You really think that not beating Israel in two attempts is ok?

 

Israel have a good team, definitely on a par or close to our team - so I'd say yeah that makes sense.

It's not the 1980's any more. Where  in our recent results is the evidence that it's wild that we aren't beating Israel away from home?

Edited September 2, 2021 by 2426255

[Meldrew]

Just now, Lex said:

 

You really think that not beating Israel in two attempts is ok?

 

what makes you think we're any better than Israel ? 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

The notion that a draw and a defeat away to Israel is somehow acceptable is fucking wild. We absolutely shat it at home to the Czechs who we should be capable of getting at least a point against at home. I'm not demanding Clarke be binned, but fucking hell, how many games is he going to toss away by only realising his starting formation isn't working when we're 1 or 2-0 down?

[Meldrew]

1 minute ago, Day of the Lords said:

The notion that a draw and a defeat away to Israel is somehow acceptable is fucking wild. We absolutely shat it at home to the Czechs who we should be capable of getting at least a point against at home. I'm not demanding Clarke be binned, but fucking hell, how many games is he going to toss away by only realising his starting formation isn't working when we're 1 or 2-0 down?

Miller, McLeish, Strachan & Dalglish are all unavailable, we're beyond w**k and that isnt changing anytime soon

[Benjamin_Nevis]

3 minutes ago, Meldrew said:

Miller, McLeish, Strachan & Dalglish are all unavailable, we're beyond w**k and that isnt changing anytime soon

Very good. However we're a full 32 places above them in the World Rankings so I would gently suggest a turgid draw and meek defeat away to them in recent months is underperforming. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

7 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Israel have a good team, definitely on a par or close to our team - so I'd say yeah that makes sense.

It's not the 1980's any more. Where  in our recent results is the evidence that it's wild that we aren't beating Israel away from home?

If Israel were any good, they wouldn't be perennial fourth seeds or below.  

In the last qualification campaign, they came 5th behind *checks notes* North Macedonia, and Slovenia.  They are a mediocre middling European side at best.  Two of their three wins were against the mighty Latvia, a country that are 7th worst in Europe, just above Andorra.

Without Zahavi, they'd be a tier 5 nation.

[2426255]

1 minute ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

They are a mediocre middling European side at best.

I'd say we could be described as the same, that's why I say peoples expectations need checked.

[forameus]

Just now, Day of the Lords said:

Very good. However we're a full 32 places above them in the World Rankings so I would gently suggest a turgid draw and meek defeat away to them in recent months is underperforming. 

World rankings really need to stop being used as any barometer of quality, particularly when it's along the lines of "x places above/below".  When over 20 of those places are taken up by nations that the likes of us and Israel are never going to meet, it's flawed.  If you look just at Europe it's slightly better (10 spots), but even then it's hard to draw much of a comparison given the sides between us.

I don't agree that we're neck and neck or anything, I think we probably should be winning close games against them more often than not.  But the gap has closed massively, just like it has with a lot of countries we used to deride as diddies.

[AJF]

34 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

So how has the Denmark game changed or altered you opinion from where you were before?

It hasn't really. I've already mentioned that judging Clarke on last night's match is probably a bit harsh given Denmark's quality. It does nothing to change my opinion though that we are struggling.

27 minutes ago, Meldrew said:

the draw against england was the only surprise for me, i think you may rate our squad too highly.

How would you rate our squad? We are a mid tier nation in my opinion and we should be doing better than 1 win in 9. Any mid table club side goes with 1 win in 9 then questions start to get asked.

Regardless if you don't expect us to win going into each individual match, the overall record is not good enough. If I came to you after the Serbia match and said "Look, here are our next 9 fixtures over the next 10 months, how do you think we will get on?" Do you really think you'd predict a single win and be content with that?

Edited September 2, 2021 by AJF

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

4 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I'd say we could be described as the same, that's why I say peoples expectations need checked.

We are operating at a level well below the sum of our parts.  I don't think that is setting expectations particularly high.

More accomplished managers could achieve far more with this group of players.

Edited September 2, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[2426255]

1 minute ago, AJF said:

It hasn't really. I've already mentioned that judging Clarke on last night's match is probably a bit harsh given Denmark's quality. It does nothing to change my opinion though that we are struggling.

Fair enough mate.

[forameus]

2 minutes ago, AJF said:

How would you rate our squad? We are a mid tier nation in my opinion and we should be doing better than 1 win in 9. Any mid table club side goes with 1 win in 9 then questions start to get asked.

Regardless if you don't expect us to win going into each individual match, the overall record is not good enough. If I came to you after the Serbia match and said "Look, here are out next 9 fixtures over the next 10 months, how do you think we will get on?" Do you really think you'd predict a single win and be content with that?

I'd say that's probably about right.  Unfortunately for us, those tiers are only getting bigger.  We've probably been mid-tier for ages, but as you go back in time there were several tiers below us, and we were maybe a bit closer to the top tier.  Now you've got a fairly small top tier of nations that will always qualify and probably always do well in tournaments.  Then a second tier where you get nations who will probably always qualify for a Euros, then get close to World Cups.  Then a gap, and the mid-tier, which contains pretty much every nation who isn't a complete diddy.  Ones that, with a bit of luck, could make a Euros, but probably stands little chance of a World Cup.  We're in there.

[Meldrew]

1 minute ago, Day of the Lords said:

Very good. However we're a full 32 places above them in the World Rankings so I would gently suggest a turgid draw and meek defeat away to them in recent months is underperforming. 

do you really place any notice on rankings ? after a tournament where everyone said ''Italy look good'' and then we all cheered when they won,  yet again Belgium flatter to deceive, but remain the #1 ranked team in the World, while Italy are 5th, we are no better than Israel, so i'd suggest the ranking have us 32 places too high

[2426255]

15 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

We are operating at a level well below the sum of our parts.  I don't think that is setting expectations particularly high.

More accomplished managers could achieve far more with this group of players.

Actually, that's another point I'd question. Are our players overhyped like many English Premier League players? Are Tierney or Robertson really the best left backs in the world? Maehle looked pretty good last night and nobody was talking about him until after the Euros. How good are we really? All the evidence says we're a middling International football team, just the same as Israel et al.

That's why we are fighting it out with Israel and Austria for 2nd place instead of with Denmark for 1st. Fortunately for us Austria seem to have declined a little lately and also been hurt by injuries which may help us get 2nd, but we have to be aware that Israel have improved and are a threat. That's realistic.

Edited September 2, 2021 by 2426255

[Meldrew]

7 minutes ago, AJF said:

It hasn't really. I've already mentioned that judging Clarke on last night's match is probably a bit harsh given Denmark's quality. It does nothing to change my opinion though that we are struggling.

How would you rate our squad? We are a mid tier nation in my opinion and we should be doing better than 1 win in 9. Any mid table club side goes with 1 win in 9 then questions start to get asked.

Regardless if you don't expect us to win going into each individual match, the overall record is not good enough. If I came to you after the Serbia match and said "Look, here are our next 9 fixtures over the next 10 months, how do you think we will get on?" Do you really think you'd predict a single win and be content with that?

if we're mid tier, we're one of, if not the one team those in the lower tier has expectation of swapping places with.

i just don't know where all this attitude of ''we should be beating teams like that'' comes from

[Meldrew]

19 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

We are operating at a level well below the sum of our parts.  I don't think that is setting expectations particularly high.

More accomplished managers could achieve far more with this group of players.

are you serious ? this group of players ? this is scotland's problem right here !!!

 

 2 left backs and a young, very promising midfielder,,, 'this group of players''' jfc.

[Diamonds are Forever]

I've thought for years now that people vastly over rate our squad. Our goalies are average at best, we have no top class players in the final third - whether that be a creative player or striker, and some very limited centre backs. We have 2 excellent left backs, but clearly only 1 can play in preferred position, and a bunch of midfielders who are full of energy and can retain the ball to some extent, but don't really offer much cover defensively or attacking creativity. The end result is last night - concede easy goals, don't score goals, but then have phases where we pass the ball around a wee bit.

All that said, I still think we are underperforming in terms of getting results. Looking at that run of our last 10 results we should still be able to pick up 2 or 3 extra draws or wins. If anything we've been fortunate to get the results we got, the draw with Austria for example was totally undeserved. The draw with England was great - although you could probably file that in the 'In a derby form goes out the window' category.

If Clarke had been in charge before the Nations League was invented I think there's a good chance he'd be on the verge of the sack now, he's benefitted from a ridiculously easy qualification route to a 24 team Euros, and even then we needed 2 penalty shoot-outs. Messing up the previous Nations League group was also a massive blunder which he got off with because it came just after us qualifying. That was an amazing chance to get ourselves a WC play-off and we blew it.

I wouldn't have given him a long contract, I'd have waited until the end of this campaign and then decided whether to give him the Euros campaign or not. I don't really see any signs of a style of play being developed or any measurable progress.

[BFTD]

Whatever your opinion of our players/manager's ability, we can surely all agree that a guff performance was absolutely inevitable after the SFA mystifyingly decided to choose this moment to extend Steve Clarke's contract. If we go on to shit the bed against Moldova and Austria, our form will have been so poor over an extended period that the location of jotters would surely have been checked under normal conditions. No chance of that until the next Euro qualifiers now; we could end up with a lame duck manager just waiting his time out to be fired without massive embarrassment (and expense) to his employers.

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

I've thought for years now that people vastly over rate our squad. Our goalies are average at best, we have no top class players in the final third - whether that be a creative player or striker, and some very limited centre backs. We have 2 excellent left backs, but clearly only 1 can play in preferred position, and a bunch of midfielders who are full of energy and can retain the ball to some extent, but don't really offer much cover defensively or attacking creativity. The end result is last night - concede easy goals, don't score goals, but then have phases where we pass the ball around a wee bit.

All that said, I still think we are underperforming in terms of getting results. Looking at that run of our last 10 results we should still be able to pick up 2 or 3 extra draws or wins. If anything we've been fortunate to get the results we got, the draw with Austria for example was totally undeserved. The draw with England was great - although you could probably file that in the 'In a derby form goes out the window' category.

If Clarke had been in charge before the Nations League was invented I think there's a good chance he'd be on the verge of the sack now, he's benefitted from a ridiculously easy qualification route to a 24 team Euros, and even then we needed 2 penalty shoot-outs. Messing up the previous Nations League group was also a massive blunder which he got off with because it came just after us qualifying. That was an amazing chance to get ourselves a WC play-off and we blew it.

I wouldn't have given him a long contract, I'd have waited until the end of this campaign and then decided whether to give him the Euros campaign or not. I don't really see any signs of a style of play being developed or any measurable progress.

I agree with most of this, though I don’t think the squad is vastly over rated - possibly slightly though. I do think much of us to do with the set up, or lack of it. 
 

Under Clarke we are neither solid, nor good going forward. We are just somewhere in the middle flailing about. Bar possibly two good performances. 

[Lex]

what makes you think we're any better than Israel ? 

Well the world rankings and seeding system for a start. They have never qualified for anything out of the UEFA system. If we are now accepting that we aren’t better than them then our problems are worse than I thought.