Time to go Steve Clarke

[HalfCutNinja]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I'll give you Moyes (who definitely wouldn't take it right now), but in what world are Billy Davies, Owen Coyle or Paul Lambert better managers than Clarke? All three have failed to achieve a fraction of what he did in England or Scotland.

Souness was a decent enough manager 20 years ago, but there's a reason nobody has touched him with a barge pole in ages.

Souness can't manage for health reasons, he was told the stress would kill him. Quadruple bypass when he was very young. If he wanted a job he'd still have one.

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Incase anyone hasn't noticed, there are countries outside Scotland who produce managers also.

Folk are discussing the potential options that the SFA would actually consider appointing.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, BFTD said:

Folk are discussing the potential options that the SFA would actually consider appointing.

I get that, and I get the sfa are about as useless as its possible to imagine. But surely if it were to be the case that we were looking for a manager they would look abroad this time. Rather than lambert or Davies etc

[BFTD]

Just now, BingMcCrosby said:

I get that, and I get the sfa are about as useless as its possible to imagine. But surely if it were to be the case that we were looking for a manager they would look abroad this time. Rather than lambert or Davies etc

I admire your optimism.

Thankfully Malky's managed to find himself gainful employment outside of the SFA.

[DA Baracus]

Where are folk getting that we will qualify for the World Cup next from?

Denmark looked very good in their last two games. They had a pace in attack we would struggle to cope with. They are the first team in Euros history to score 4 goals in consecutive games. How are we getting a win in Copenhagen? Or even a draw. How are we beating them at Hampden?

Austria are holding Italy just now. Italy have definitely turned in their worst performance of the tournament so far, but Austria are in this game. They also go through their group, winning two games and scoring 4 goals. What is there to suggest we can win in Vienna? Which is what we will almost certainly have to do after drawing at Hampden?

 

We've already chucked the group. History has shown us, time and time again, that results like the Austria and Israel ones do us in. Check back on past groups. It's the same pattern. We have results like that and folk say we can still qualify. Whilst they are not technically incorrect, the stats show that time and time again it knackers our chances. It puts us out of qualification. Sadly, I think we are almost certainly out now again. We have thrown it away with the two aforementioned results, and saying otherwise is simply hoping for a statistical anomaly. 

We need to quit the jurassic football. Get the 'launching long balls for a man to try and win a flick on or hold up play' to f**k. Get taking time over free kicks so we can 'load the box' to f**k (when does this work?). Take a quick one and keep play flowing instead. We need to play more like we did at Wembley, where we kept the ball more often and put together some smart passing moves. That performance should be the starting point, and we should build on it. Try to make more space and movement for quicker passing forward so that we don't see the defence passing it among pointlessly themselves so often. But overall, try to change the mentality. Try to get shit like 'keep it tight and knick one' to f**k. Stop the loser talk. Stop the loser mentality. 

[Binos]

Austria Denmark will serve us up

'genius ' apparently tactical switch from Danish coach realising bale ramsey were getting space in midfield so took one out of back three into midfield to close it down 15 mins into game 

 stevie just left it for 90 mins.....

[John Lambies Doos]

Clarke deserves the WC qualifiers but getting 0 points from 6 in home games at the Euros is criminal.
Dykes should go, next to useless... let's give Nisbet his chance with Adams.

[forameus]

The World Cup chances are probably gone, but realistically were pretty slim before a ball was kicked.  Expect we'll finish 3rd, probably within touching distance of Austria.  Whether that's considered a failure or not will be down to the execution, but as a standalone, not qualifying for a World Cup is not a failure for a Scotland manager.

Now if they stick with him into the 2024 campaign - and I suspect they will, unless things go reeeeally wrong - and we didn't qualify for that, now THAT'S a colossal failure, and he should be sent directly to the sea as a result.

[John Lambies Doos]

The World Cup chances are probably gone, but realistically were pretty slim before a ball was kicked.  Expect we'll finish 3rd, probably within touching distance of Austria.  Whether that's considered a failure or not will be down to the execution, but as a standalone, not qualifying for a World Cup is not a failure for a Scotland manager.
Now if they stick with him into the 2024 campaign - and I suspect they will, unless things go reeeeally wrong - and we didn't qualify for that, now THAT'S a colossal failure, and he should be sent directly to the sea as a result.

Agree, with our current crop of young players maturing the Euros (with 24 teams) should be a certainty with a half decent manager.

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, forameus said:

The World Cup chances are probably gone, but realistically were pretty slim before a ball was kicked.  Expect we'll finish 3rd, probably within touching distance of Austria.  Whether that's considered a failure or not will be down to the execution, but as a standalone, not qualifying for a World Cup is not a failure for a Scotland manager.

Now if they stick with him into the 2024 campaign - and I suspect they will, unless things go reeeeally wrong - and we didn't qualify for that, now THAT'S a colossal failure, and he should be sent directly to the sea as a result.

The worst part is that we got just about the most favourable draw imaginable.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves - as unlikely as it is, it's still entirely possible that we could somehow come out on top against the Danes and Austrians, before inevitably missing out due to dropped points against Israel and Moldova. And I don't much fancy the look of that trip to Tórshavn either  

[2426255]

People always say we should beat these teams or that it's a favorable draw to get Austria and Denmark and in my view that's where the difference is between expectations and reality are. Austria, Denmark and for example Croatia have better players and more of them than Scotland and in the case of Denmark and Croatia their core team have played together for longer.

Our team can become like that, but it won't happen overnight which seems to be what people on here expect and when that doesn't happen they get disappointed, hurt and angry and then say get the manager out.  Scotland are meeting rational expectations in everything they have done under Steve Clarke. I think this is fed by the Premier League hype where for example "Kieran Tierney is one of the best left backs in the world at Arsenal" , but no-one knows too much about the Danish left wing back Joakim Maehle who is just as good. 

[lubo_blaha]

Where are folk getting that we will qualify for the World Cup next from?
Denmark looked very good in their last two games. They had a pace in attack we would struggle to cope with. They are the first team in Euros history to score 4 goals in consecutive games. How are we getting a win in Copenhagen? Or even a draw. How are we beating them at Hampden?
Austria are holding Italy just now. Italy have definitely turned in their worst performance of the tournament so far, but Austria are in this game. They also go through their group, winning two games and scoring 4 goals. What is there to suggest we can win in Vienna? Which is what we will almost certainly have to do after drawing at Hampden?
 
We've already chucked the group. History has shown us, time and time again, that results like the Austria and Israel ones do us in. Check back on past groups. It's the same pattern. We have results like that and folk say we can still qualify. Whilst they are not technically incorrect, the stats show that time and time again it knackers our chances. It puts us out of qualification. Sadly, I think we are almost certainly out now again. We have thrown it away with the two aforementioned results, and saying otherwise is simply hoping for a statistical anomaly. 
We need to quit the jurassic football. Get the 'launching long balls for a man to try and win a flick on or hold up play' to f**k. Get taking time over free kicks so we can 'load the box' to f**k (when does this work?). Take a quick one and keep play flowing instead. We need to play more like we did at Wembley, where we kept the ball more often and put together some smart passing moves. That performance should be the starting point, and we should build on it. Try to make more space and movement for quicker passing forward so that we don't see the defence passing it among pointlessly themselves so often. But overall, try to change the mentality. Try to get shit like 'keep it tight and knick one' to f**k. Stop the loser talk. Stop the loser mentality. 

Quite impressive that you signed that off “Stop the loser mentality” after writing off our chances of qualifying after 3/10 games.

[forameus]

7 minutes ago, BFTD said:

The worst part is that we got just about the most favourable draw imaginable.

But let's not get ahead of ourselves - as unlikely as it is, it's still entirely possible that we could somehow come out on top against the Danes and Austrians, before inevitably missing out due to dropped points against Israel and Moldova. And I don't much fancy the look of that trip to Tórshavn either  

See, for me this is part of the problem with the support as a whole (and I promise I'm not picking on just you).  We're saying it's possible we could beat the top two seeds, but then wryly say we worry about the trip to the Faroes.  With this recent exit, I've noticed quite a few trying to double dip in misery, talking about how we only qualified through the backdoor, and thus didn't really deserve to be there, then in the same breath talking about how we should have gotten out of our group.  We seem to dash wildly between self-pitying "och, it'll be raining anyway" pish and sky-high set-phasers-to-malky unrealism.  We often fail to just look at things coldly and realistically. 

Not sure why that is, whether it's a defence mechanism, or just a joy of being miserable, but the truth with this group for the WC is that no matter if it was more favourable than one we could have got, it's still an extremely tall order for us.  We should comfortably reach 3rd, and I expect we will, but to get to the World Cup as group winner, we need to be extremely consistent throughout the group (we usually fail at that) as well as effectively winning two two-legged ties against the top and 2nd seeds.  Usually we could probably manage one of those things, maybe two at a push, but you really need all three (barring catastrophe for other sides, which rarely happens to one seed let alone two).  If you manage to scrape second, you're still likely facing a very tough playoff match against a better side (and I've no idea what will happen with the Nations League playoffs) 

I expect in September, after four points in three games, we'll see the same jumps.  Claims that we should be topping the group, alongside ones that still think we'll finish bottom.  I'd never go as far as saying a qualification campaign doesn't matter, but if we don't qualify, and instead just look like a more cohesive unit that - gasp - actually scores goals come November, I wouldn't be too fussed.  We need to be more than ready come the next Nations League campaign which will tie into the Euros, guarantee a playoff spot there, then go into 2024 campaign aiming to qualify automatically. 

[2426255]

2 minutes ago, forameus said:

See, for me this is part of the problem with the support as a whole (and I promise I'm not picking on just you).  We're saying it's possible we could beat the top two seeds, but then wryly say we worry about the trip to the Faroes.  With this recent exit, I've noticed quite a few trying to double dip in misery, talking about how we only qualified through the backdoor, and thus didn't really deserve to be there, then in the same breath talking about how we should have gotten out of our group.  We seem to dash wildly between self-pitying "och, it'll be raining anyway" pish and sky-high set-phasers-to-malky unrealism.  We often fail to just look at things coldly and realistically. 

Not sure why that is, whether it's a defence mechanism, or just a joy of being miserable, but the truth with this group for the WC is that no matter if it was more favourable than one we could have got, it's still an extremely tall order for us.  We should comfortably reach 3rd, and I expect we will, but to get to the World Cup as group winner, we need to be extremely consistent throughout the group (we usually fail at that) as well as effectively winning two two-legged ties against the top and 2nd seeds.  Usually we could probably manage one of those things, maybe two at a push, but you really need all three (barring catastrophe for other sides, which rarely happens to one seed let alone two).  If you manage to scrape second, you're still likely facing a very tough playoff match against a better side (and I've no idea what will happen with the Nations League playoffs) 

I expect in September, after four points in three games, we'll see the same jumps.  Claims that we should be topping the group, alongside ones that still think we'll finish bottom.  I'd never go as far as saying a qualification campaign doesn't matter, but if we don't qualify, and instead just look like a more cohesive unit that - gasp - actually scores goals come November, I wouldn't be too fussed.  We need to be more than ready come the next Nations League campaign which will tie into the Euros, guarantee a playoff spot there, then go into 2024 campaign aiming to qualify automatically. 

Excellent Post - totally agree, we can also hope some pot 2 teams decline and if we are steadily improving in time we can look to replace them. 

[forameus]

6 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Excellent Post - totally agree, we can also hope some pot 2 teams decline and if we are steadily improving in time we can look to replace them. 

We're a tier 3 nation likely in international football, and have been for some time.  But that tier has grown massively while we've stood still.  If we can build a solid base, I see no reason why we can't move to the fringes of tier 2, and with kind draws start looking like a side that can consistently finish 2nd in a group, rather than flirt with it for a bit before headbutting them and throwing up.  

[Ken Deans]

1 hour ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Clarke deserves the WC qualifiers but getting 0 points from 6 in home games at the Euros is criminal.
Dykes should go, next to useless... let's give Nisbet his chance with Adams.

Thought Armstrong was worse than useless along with Dykes. But its easy to criticise players when the in game management from the dugout is non existent.

[Bing.McCrosby]

2 hours ago, 2426255 said:

People always say we should beat these teams or that it's a favorable draw to get Austria and Denmark and in my view that's where the difference is between expectations and reality are. Austria, Denmark and for example Croatia have better players and more of them than Scotland and in the case of Denmark and Croatia their core team have played together for longer.

Our team can become like that, but it won't happen overnight which seems to be what people on here expect and when that doesn't happen they get disappointed, hurt and angry and then say get the manager out.  Scotland are meeting rational expectations in everything they have done under Steve Clarke. I think this is fed by the Premier League hype where for example "Kieran Tierney is one of the best left backs in the world at Arsenal" , but no-one knows too much about the Danish left wing back Joakim Maehle who is just as good. 

I get thats an expression, but Clarke hasn't been in the job "over night"

Again its about your interpretation of what's a rational expectation.

To me its not irrational to expect to take more than points 0 at home against the Czechs and Croatia.

Or the beat Austria at home. Or not to get football lesson from Israel once every couple of months.

[Lex]

Not yet. Should be given the chance to get to the World Cup. If we get to the World Cup he should be given a knight hood. If we get second in the group and miss out in the playoffs he should be given another campaign.
If we finish third he should be sacked.

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, forameus said:

See, for me this is part of the problem with the support as a whole (and I promise I'm not picking on just you).  We're saying it's possible we could beat the top two seeds, but then wryly say we worry about the trip to the Faroes.  With this recent exit, I've noticed quite a few trying to double dip in misery, talking about how we only qualified through the backdoor, and thus didn't really deserve to be there, then in the same breath talking about how we should have gotten out of our group.  We seem to dash wildly between self-pitying "och, it'll be raining anyway" pish and sky-high set-phasers-to-malky unrealism.  We often fail to just look at things coldly and realistically. 

Not sure why that is, whether it's a defence mechanism, or just a joy of being miserable, but the truth with this group for the WC is that no matter if it was more favourable than one we could have got, it's still an extremely tall order for us.  We should comfortably reach 3rd, and I expect we will, but to get to the World Cup as group winner, we need to be extremely consistent throughout the group (we usually fail at that) as well as effectively winning two two-legged ties against the top and 2nd seeds.  Usually we could probably manage one of those things, maybe two at a push, but you really need all three (barring catastrophe for other sides, which rarely happens to one seed let alone two).  If you manage to scrape second, you're still likely facing a very tough playoff match against a better side (and I've no idea what will happen with the Nations League playoffs) 

I expect in September, after four points in three games, we'll see the same jumps.  Claims that we should be topping the group, alongside ones that still think we'll finish bottom.  I'd never go as far as saying a qualification campaign doesn't matter, but if we don't qualify, and instead just look like a more cohesive unit that - gasp - actually scores goals come November, I wouldn't be too fussed.  We need to be more than ready come the next Nations League campaign which will tie into the Euros, guarantee a playoff spot there, then go into 2024 campaign aiming to qualify automatically. 

I'm not taking that personally, as it doesn't describe me at all  

I don't disagree with much of that. I was joking about the trip to the Faroes, although we could probably count the number of European nations any of us would feel confident of taking six points from on the fingers of one hand. That's just experience.

[Monkey Tennis]

16 hours ago, Out of office said:

Where are folk getting that we will qualify for the World Cup next from?

Denmark looked very good in their last two games. They had a pace in attack we would struggle to cope with. They are the first team in Euros history to score 4 goals in consecutive games. How are we getting a win in Copenhagen? Or even a draw. How are we beating them at Hampden?

Austria are holding Italy just now. Italy have definitely turned in their worst performance of the tournament so far, but Austria are in this game. They also go through their group, winning two games and scoring 4 goals. What is there to suggest we can win in Vienna? Which is what we will almost certainly have to do after drawing at Hampden?

 

We've already chucked the group. History has shown us, time and time again, that results like the Austria and Israel ones do us in. Check back on past groups. It's the same pattern. We have results like that and folk say we can still qualify. Whilst they are not technically incorrect, the stats show that time and time again it knackers our chances. It puts us out of qualification. Sadly, I think we are almost certainly out now again. We have thrown it away with the two aforementioned results, and saying otherwise is simply hoping for a statistical anomaly. 

We need to quit the jurassic football. Get the 'launching long balls for a man to try and win a flick on or hold up play' to f**k. Get taking time over free kicks so we can 'load the box' to f**k (when does this work?). Take a quick one and keep play flowing instead. We need to play more like we did at Wembley, where we kept the ball more often and put together some smart passing moves. That performance should be the starting point, and we should build on it. Try to make more space and movement for quicker passing forward so that we don't see the defence passing it among pointlessly themselves so often. But overall, try to change the mentality. Try to get shit like 'keep it tight and knick one' to f**k. Stop the loser talk. Stop the loser mentality. 

Spot on regarding our World Cup qualification chances.

It's driving me mad when people talk about hoping we qualify, without acknowledging how unlikely it is, given the lousy start we've already made.