Time to go Steve Clarke

[KingRocketman II]

with the players currently at his disposal and with the players emerging, we should be playing a lot better than what we have seen under Clarke. On the occasions that we do play well against bigger or evenly matched teams, it is only for spells of the game.  We are not playing badly or are dire, I just don't believe Clarke is getting the best out of one of the best group of players we have had in decades. I

f at the expense of playing good football formed around a decent consistent shape, we were getting results, I would argue that the latter is more important given our failure over the past 20 years but any key game with perhaps the only exception being Israel and Serbia, we are not winning. 

therefore thank you Clarke for your efforts and for getting us to a tournament (not forgetting the stumbling input of McLeish) - but it is time to move on. I would say before any more WC qualifiers but he will v likely remain for the next batch, and invariably we will be out of the reckoning. Then Clarke will probably move onto the English Championship. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

3 minutes ago, woof! said:

There has been an improvement under Clarke but he has better players at his disposal than previous managers. If Strachan had the current squad I think he’d probably have done better. 

Right now, we're lacking a Maloney to take grip of games. 

Even as limited as Dykes is, he's probably a better player than Martin.  Adams is definitely better than any striker Strachan had.

Top tier nations have strikers that score from non-opportunities, and we have strikers that fail to score from very good opportunities.  

We have areas to fix across the team, but converting chances is by some distance, the biggest problem that we have.

[KingRocketman II]

7 minutes ago, woof! said:

There has been an improvement under Clarke but he has better players at his disposal than previous managers. If Strachan had the current squad I think he’d probably have done better. 

all managers are driven by their own convictions and can be quite head strong even in the face of what appears to be fair and valid observations about squad inclusions and starters. But Strachan takes belligerence to a whole new level - we only started playing well when he finally relented (for whatever reason) and started playing the spine of the Celtic team ahead of English Championship jobbers. Strachan is no where near an ideal candidate to get the best out of the current squad.

Patterson and Turnbull would immediately be hooked for Palmer and Calum Paterson for starters. 

[woof!]

1 minute ago, KingRocketman II said:

all managers are driven by their own convictions and can be quite head strong even in the face of what appears to be fair and valid observations about squad inclusions and starters. But Strachan takes belligerence to a whole new level - we only started playing well when he finally relented (for whatever reason) and started playing the spine of the Celtic team ahead of English Championship jobbers. Strachan is no where near an ideal candidate to get the best out of the current squad.

Patterson and Turnbull would immediately be hooked for Palmer and Calum Paterson for starters. 

I’m not suggesting Strachan should get the job, just that the apparent improvement with Clarke is down to having better players. When Gilmour and Patterson are in the team we will continue to improve and Clarke can’t take the credit for that. 

[Fuctifano]

An issue we have at the moment is when we play well we don't win e.g. the Nations League game vs Slovakia after the Serbia playoff (even the Serbia game itself should have been done and dusted in the 90), and when we play badly we rarely fluke a result. 

My other concern is every time we play fucking Israel they seem to have our number which you'd think with better players and coaching we'd be able to overcome. 

I can definitely acknowledge progress but I think the next triple header with trips to Denmark and Austria will show if we've improved any, assuming our team isn't decimated with covid or injuries. If those go badly and we're detached from 2nd there will be a large clamour for change but there's not a standout candidate domestically. However if we can get a couple of draws or a draw and a win then that changes the narrative. 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Fuctifano

[lichtiemike]

Imagine wanting Clarke out man, shows a lot of our fans are actually entitled arseholes.

[craigkillie]

24 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

all managers are driven by their own convictions and can be quite head strong even in the face of what appears to be fair and valid observations about squad inclusions and starters. But Strachan takes belligerence to a whole new level - we only started playing well when he finally relented (for whatever reason) and started playing the spine of the Celtic team ahead of English Championship jobbers. Strachan is no where near an ideal candidate to get the best out of the current squad.

Patterson and Turnbull would immediately be hooked for Palmer and Calum Paterson for starters. 

Strachan gave Callum Paterson his first Scotland call-up at a similar age to what Nathan Patterson is now, so that's not the best example really.

[DanMc99]

14 minutes ago, Fuctifano said:

An issue we have at the moment is when we play well we don't win e.g. the Nations League game vs Slovakia after the Serbia playoff (even the Serbia game itself should have been done and dusted in the 90), and when we play badly we rarely fluke a result. 

My other concern is every time we play fucking Israel they seem to have our number which you'd think with better players and coaching we'd be able to overcome. 

I can definitely acknowledge progress but I think the next triple header with trips to Denmark and Austria will show if we've improved any, assuming our team isn't decimated with covid or injuries. If those go badly and we're detached from 2nd there will be a large clamour for change but there's not a standout candidate domestically. However if we can get a couple of draws or a draw and a win then that changes the narrative. 

 

the reason israel seem to have our number is always down to us not being able to take the sting out of the game and having meaningful possession, I think/hope thats going to change now.

[Ken Deans]

39 minutes ago, lichtiemike said:

Imagine wanting Clarke out man, shows a lot of our fans are actually entitled arseholes.

I hardly think wanting our team to perform at a decent level while being set up correctly makes anyone entitled. Or an arsehole

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Ken Deans said:

I hardly think wanting our team to perform at a decent level while being set up correctly makes anyone entitled. Or an arsehole

Indeed, if its entitled to expect more than zero points from 2 home games then we would be as well giving in.

Nobody's saying we want Clarke taken out the back and shot.

Just a new manager with better ideas. 

[sergie's no1 fan]

Indeed, if its entitled to expect more than zero points from 2 home games then we would be as well giving in.
Nobody's saying we want Clarke taken out the back and shot.
Just a new manager with better ideas. 

Has he not earned enough goodwill to at least have a shot of getting us to the World Cup? He is still learning the job? Tournament football is new to this generation?

To sack him now would be incredibly harsh imo.

[Aufc]

As I said, I am not wanting him sacked but…

[joozy]

14 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

Has he not earned enough goodwill to at least have a shot of getting us to the World Cup? He is still learning the job? Tournament football is new to this generation?

To sack him now would be incredibly harsh imo.

 

It would be harsh, but his track record so far is pretty uninspiring.

In his 24 games as manager we've won 9 games beating Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Czech Republic (x2 although one was against their third XI), Slovakia, Kazakhstan, Cyprus (x2), and San Marino.  Excluding the diddy teams and the match against the Czech C team, we've beaten two teams who are around us in the rankings.   We've played Israel about a billion times and failed to beat them once over the 90 minutes.

During the Euros we had home games against a fairly average Czech side and a good, but not world-beating, Croatian side.  In both matches he messed up.  For the first match, the starting line-up just wasn't right.  Yes, we were unlucky at times but starting with Dykes as a long striker and no Gilmour in the middle was something that was pretty obviously a mistake.  His substitutions were his usual tactic of throwing darts at the board and praying something would work.  Against the Croatians, you could argue that it might have made more sense to have a Fleck in to replace Gilmour at the base of the midfield as a more like-for-like player than Armstrong.  But overall, i don't think many would have argued with it.  By half-time, though, it was clear that things weren't working as Croatia were absolutely bossing the game.  Clarke did nothing.  I can't really recall ever watching a game where Clarke has impressed with his in-game management.

He does seem to have generated a good atmosphere in the camp and that's important.  I also think you've got to give him a bit more time to see if he can improve.  But this current crop of Scotland players does have the potential to be as good a side as we've had in quite some time.  It's not perfect, obviously, and we're still lacking genuine quality in one or two positions (goalkeeper and centre half worries me).  But a team that can hopefully be built for the next 5-6 years around a core  of Tierney, Robertson, Patterson, McGinn, McTominay, Turnbull, Gilmour and Adams isn't too bad.  

We just need a manager capable of doing what other national team coaches have done and mould it into something that is greater than the sum of its parts.  If Clarke hasn't shown that by the end of the World Cup campaign then I think that could be the time to look at making changes.

[DanMc99]

44 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Indeed, if its entitled to expect more than zero points from 2 home games then we would be as well giving in.

Nobody's saying we want Clarke taken out the back and shot.

Just a new manager with better ideas. 

who is the best option?

for talking sake and with the players we have at our disposal i'd be more than happy to bring in a manager who has a more positive style and possession based but i don't know how many of them are around.

 

[PauloPerth]

Don't want Clarke punted, continuity is probably best just now.

But I would like an honest assessment of aspects of his tenure so that we can learn and improve rather than continually make the same mistakes.  Yes Croatia are far better technically than us, but we came up woefully short last night in terms of team selection, tactics, and especially in not reacting to what was happening and make the necessary changes. Does Clarke have the best available coaches around him? Do we need to bring in someone as part of the staff that has experience of progressing in tournament, or at least has better tactical acumen than john carver etc.

Do we need to be more professional in our approach?  The whigfield conga was great crack, but would other countries allow their players to drink all night in celebration 3-4 days before a crucial nations league qualifier?  That offered us a brilliant avenue for qualification to the WC and we carelessly chucked it.  Back to back tournaments would have been (hopefully still will be) an incredible opportunity to build on the recent tournament experience and go further.

A controversial one, but how did our best player catch covid during the tournament?  Okay everyone will say it was bad luck, but nobody else caught it in the squad during the tournament. Why was there no member of staff pulling him away from spending more than 15 minutes in close proximity to a couple of England players on Friday night?  Obviously he didn't catch it from them, but it maybe shows a slackness.  We were supposed to be in a bubble. Did Gilmour get to spend time with friends/ family after the England game putting him at risk of infection?  Was our organisation and management of protocols good enough?  If other countries lose their star players for matches in this tournament due to covid infection, then fair enough.  

 Obviously a lot of stuff is not down to Clarke, but we need to look at everything that needs to improve for the future as there always some way we f**k it for ourselves, whereas other countries give themselves the best possible chance of doing well.  I'd prefer us to learn from them rather than continually tell ourselves how unlucky we are.

[Empty It]

Is it just me or are the majority of people wanting Clarke out OF fans who had a huge problem with him getting the job in the first place, most likely due to the fact he called them out for what they are bigots.

[lichtiemike]

It has to be said, sending the players home for 2 days to see family during covid times seems unbelievably stupid to me.

I appreciate most will have young families etc and in normal times this would be no problem but I said at the time this was an unnecessary risk.

[craigkillie]

8 minutes ago, Empty It said:

Is it just me or are the majority of people wanting Clarke out OF fans who had a huge problem with him getting the job in the first place, most likely due to the fact he called them out for what they are bigots.

Yep, this is a big part in it too, which also permeates some of the media - see for example the screenshot posted above, which based on the font I think will be an article from The Athletic, written by one of their two blinkered OF-fanboys. Some classic "if you exclude the games where a thing happened, a thing didn't happen" arguments going on there.

Edited June 23, 2021 by craigkillie

[sergie's no1 fan]

It would be harsh, but his track record so far is pretty uninspiring.
In his 24 games as manager we've won 9 games beating Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Czech Republic (x2 although one was against their third XI), Slovakia, Kazakhstan, Cyprus (x2), and San Marino.  Excluding the diddy teams and the match against the Czech C team, we've beaten two teams who are around us in the rankings.   We've played Israel about a billion times and failed to beat them once over the 90 minutes.
During the Euros we had home games against a fairly average Czech side and a good, but not world-beating, Croatian side.  In both matches he messed up.  For the first match, the starting line-up just wasn't right.  Yes, we were unlucky at times but starting with Dykes as a long striker and no Gilmour in the middle was something that was pretty obviously a mistake.  His substitutions were his usual tactic of throwing darts at the board and praying something would work.  Against the Croatians, you could argue that it might have made more sense to have a Fleck in to replace Gilmour at the base of the midfield as a more like-for-like player than Armstrong.  But overall, i don't think many would have argued with it.  By half-time, though, it was clear that things weren't working as Croatia were absolutely bossing the game.  Clarke did nothing.  I can't really recall ever watching a game where Clarke has impressed with his in-game management.
He does seem to have generated a good atmosphere in the camp and that's important.  I also think you've got to give him a bit more time to see if he can improve.  But this current crop of Scotland players does have the potential to be as good a side as we've had in quite some time.  It's not perfect, obviously, and we're still lacking genuine quality in one or two positions (goalkeeper and centre half worries me).  But a team that can hopefully be built for the next 5-6 years around a core  of Tierney, Robertson, Patterson, McGinn, McTominay, Turnbull, Gilmour and Adams isn't too bad.  
We just need a manager capable of doing what other national team coaches have done and mould it into something that is greater than the sum of its parts.  If Clarke hasn't shown that by the end of the World Cup campaign then I think that could be the time to look at making changes.

Some very fair points bud.

I'd argue getting Scotland to a tournament using players like O'Donnell, Gallagher and Considine is an achievement in itself.

We lack quality at an alarming rate at both ends of the pitch.

We definitely had the chances to score. In every game. Some of the goals we lost were avoidable but 3 were world class finishes also.

If we can take the England performance into our World Cup qualifiers we should have a chance.

[Empty It]

Yep, this is a big part in it too, which also permeates some of the media - see for example the screenshot posted above, which based on the font I think will be an article from The Athletic, written by one of their two blinkered OF-fanboys. Some classic "if you exclude the games where a thing happened, a thing didn't happen" arguments going on there.

Shock isn't it, they don't team up very often but when they do it's against a noble cause like speaking out against bigotry.