Lowland League 2021-22 General Chat

[FairWeatherFan]

I just remembered Broomhill exist They might actually try and get into Broadwood so they can finally be a West of Scotland club again.

[Dev]

Given Cumbernauld colts are in a long-standing development/growth situation maybe the club could tackle some or all elements of the whole facility at Broadwood, given there are all sorts of relevant facilities there which would be potentially useful for an up and coming community based club?

Taken from the Cumbernauld Colts web site:

CLUB HISTORY

Cumbernauld Colts FC has a long history in the town and indeed was the New Towns first youth football club when it formed in 1969 and during the 70s and early 80s was the towns biggest youth football club. A number of youngsters during this era went on to become professionals, the three most prominent are Derek Whyte of (Celtic, Aberdeen, Middlesbrough and Scotland International), Jackie McNamara of (Dunfermline, Celtic, Wolves, Aberdeen, Falkirk and Scotland International) and Dougie Bell of (St Mirren, Aberdeen, Rangers, Hibernian).

With no infrastructure in place to bring on new teams each year, unfortunately during the 80s and 90s the club went into a period of decline with a number of teams disbanding, and during season 1998/99 the clubs one remaining team folded. In 1999 the club was reborn and re-branded with the launch of a new single youth age group team and over the next five years was steadily built back up and is now again considered to be one of, if not the biggest club in the Central Region.

The club has both Boys and Girls Academy’s, the boys provides coaching for 5/6 year old children, with the girls 7-8 year old’s, these initiatives are the life blood of the club as each year new small sided game sectons are created.

The club has Girls U9’s U11’s, U13’s and U15's, boys small game sections at every level i.e. U7’s, 8s, 9s, 10s, 11s and 12’s and 11-a-side teams up to Adult level, in all twenty four sections with a playing membership of almost 600. The club also delivers a number of community programmes i.e mini kickers 3-5 years, >35’s, Disability Centre, After School Centres and Weekend Football Centres, these programmes have in excess of 120 participants each week.

In 2015 the club were awarded full membership of the Scottish FA and admitted to the SLFL (Scottish Lowland Football League), the clubs first step into the world of senior professional football.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

59 minutes ago, cowdenbeath said:

If they could come to some sort of arrangement with QP they could do the same at the new Lesser Hampden.

Lesser has a very small capacity though. Braodwood's a good sized ground

[cowdenbeath]

31 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Lesser has a very small capacity though. Braodwood's a good sized ground

They may just continue moving games around the country which I personally think is the best thing.

Lesser was just a thought as it was on their door step.

They don’t normally play U21 games on artificial pitches so that would maybe rule Broadwood out.

[Craig fae the Vale]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I just remembered Broomhill exist They might actually try and get into Broadwood so they can finally be a West of Scotland club again.

Really wouldn't be surprised if Broomhill try and get in. 

[bravehearts dad]

9 hours ago, Craig the Hunter said:

Really wouldn't be surprised if Broomhill try and get in. 

And change their name again to:- Diddy FC Nomads

C’mon The Rose

[Boaby Fisher]

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this question, but it's something that has been fascinating me more and more since I started following non-league fitba. Do you think Scotland is the only European nation that has all of these decent teams that are tucked away in the lower reaches who could cruise up three or four levels quite comfortably as we are now seeing with Cove and Kelty? I grew up down south and now live in the US so never really learned much about lower league fitba, only really following the Shire as they meandered their way ever downwards (my Dad and his Dad were both Shire fans). Now I see teams that are ostensibly lower in the pyramid pecking order but are a lot stronger than most Tier 5 clubs - BoD being the latest team to ascend and who would bet against them winning the HL next year?

I've also become more familiar with English non-league now that my local team down there, Southend has slipped into oblivion. There's nobody in the lower reaches there who you would fancy to sweep through a few divisions. I don't believe there's another nation in Europe quite like Scotland in this respect, so what is it about the Scottish scene that fostered such strong junior/amateur clubs who were capable of beating professionals? Any insight on this would be much appreciated.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, Boaby Fisher said:

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this question, but it's something that has been fascinating me more and more since I started following non-league fitba. Do you think Scotland is the only European nation that has all of these decent teams that are tucked away in the lower reaches who could cruise up three or four levels quite comfortably as we are now seeing with Cove and Kelty? I grew up down south and now live in the US so never really learned much about lower league fitba, only really following the Shire as they meandered their way ever downwards (my Dad and his Dad were both Shire fans). Now I see teams that are ostensibly lower in the pyramid pecking order but are a lot stronger than most Tier 5 clubs - BoD being the latest team to ascend and who would bet against them winning the HL next year?

I've also become more familiar with English non-league now that my local team down there, Southend has slipped into oblivion. There's nobody in the lower reaches there who you would fancy to sweep through a few divisions. I don't believe there's another nation in Europe quite like Scotland in this respect, so what is it about the Scottish scene that fostered such strong junior/amateur clubs who were capable of beating professionals? Any insight on this would be much appreciated.

Simple answer is there was no pyramid until the last decade, with the bulk of the Juniors only on board in past few seasons, and non-league was split between Junior and non-league Senior, with the Junior clubs being from predominantly populated areas and the non-league Senior clubs (Edinburgh area excepted) being from rural areas and simple force of population meant Junior sides were stronger as there were more players and fewer part-time options for guys from Ayrshire/Lothians/Glasgow in the national leagues. A lot of the Junior clubs formed after the Scottish League was created so have been outside-looking-in from the start. Then again, the first 50 years of the Scottish League was so tumultous, there are Junior clubs that played at national Senior level originally either as original or follow on clubs.

TL;DR evolution in isolation.

In my opinion!

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, Boaby Fisher said:

I've also become more familiar with English non-league now that my local team down there, Southend has slipped into oblivion. There's nobody in the lower reaches there who you would fancy to sweep through a few divisions. I don't believe there's another nation in Europe quite like Scotland in this respect, so what is it about the Scottish scene that fostered such strong junior/amateur clubs who were capable of beating professionals? Any insight on this would be much appreciated.

Only going by what I've read on the internet and the likes of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_non-League_football_system 

It would seem the difference between the two countries is that you had clubs pushing to get into the Football League from the outside, creating what is now the National League to get the strongest non-league clubs together when promotion was decided by election, before eventually getting automatic promotion in 1987. The pyramid then gets constructed by the FA and now clubs have found their level.

Whereas in Scotland there wasn't enough non-league clubs wanting to get into the football league (obvious given the number of SFL clubs for the size of the country), I don't think there was ever the chance of the bottom clubs being voted out, and the Juniors were happy playing in their regions (as witnessed by the failed attempts at a combined East/West Superleague).

That was until 2013-14 when the LL and pyramid play-off came in, and it snowballed from there...

Edited April 25, 2022 by Ginaro

[Gordon EF]

3 hours ago, Boaby Fisher said:

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this question, but it's something that has been fascinating me more and more since I started following non-league fitba. Do you think Scotland is the only European nation that has all of these decent teams that are tucked away in the lower reaches who could cruise up three or four levels quite comfortably as we are now seeing with Cove and Kelty?

Cove and Kelty both have very significant financial backing compared to almost all of the clubs they've passed on their rise up the leagues. Without that backing, it's hugely unlikely that they'd be looking at starting next season in the Championship and League One respectively.

There are plenty of clubs in the English system who received financial backing and rocketed through the leagues. Salford City, Fleetwood Town, etc.

That said, the way the pyramid has come together means there are plenty of clubs who're below what you'd probably expect their 'natural level' to be. Most notably in the West of Scotland Premier League where most of the league should probably be sitting at least one level higher than they do now and most people suspect a handful of clubs could live comfortably in the SPFL.

Take outside finance out of it and I think you'd be struggling to find many clubs who you could realistically "cruise" up three levels, never mind four.

Four levels above tier 6 is the Championship. I don't think there's any danger you'll find a current tier 6 club in the championship within 4 or 5 years without some serious money being spent.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

14 hours ago, Boaby Fisher said:

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this question, but it's something that has been fascinating me more and more since I started following non-league fitba. Do you think Scotland is the only European nation that has all of these decent teams that are tucked away in the lower reaches who could cruise up three or four levels quite comfortably as we are now seeing with Cove and Kelty?

@Marten will know better than me but, for a long time, there was an "amateur/professional" style split in the Dutch game where they, too, had separate league systems. It was pretty much accepted that the best in the non-league were better than the worst in the league but when they finally merged it never turnt out that way.

[Marten]

30 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

@Marten will know better than me but, for a long time, there was an "amateur/professional" style split in the Dutch game where they, too, had separate league systems. It was pretty much accepted that the best in the non-league were better than the worst in the league but when they finally merged it never turnt out that way.

The first team to get relegated from the Dutch professional divisions, TOP Oss, went straight back up. The first team to get promoted, Achilles '29 in 2013, struggled for 4 seasons and then went back down. Not only that, the big investments they made to achieve promotion caused problems after their relegation, meaning that they relegated 3 seasons in a row, ending up in the 5th tier, after that Covid saved them but now they are getting relegated again, so in 5 years they will have gone from tier 2 to tier 6.

However, it's a bit more nuanced than that. TOP Oss got relegated to the weaker "Sunday" 3rd tier, they would definitely have struggled more in the "Saturday" league. They are now finally starting to get rid of the artificial divide in the higher non-league tiers. Also, to be eligible to get promoted you need a professional license, which at the moment is prohibitively expensive and clubs won't see it as worth the effort as Achilles proved that if things go wrong, it can destroy the club. Some of the bigger Saturday teams could probably compete on tier 2 but haven't made the step partially for that reason. So far, only Achilles, TOP Oss and Utrecht Colts managed to get promoted and only TOP Oss & Twente Colts got relegated (when TOP Oss returned, they replaced RBC who went bust).

The Dutch pyramid has been and still is a complete mess in multiple aspects, making the Scottish pyramid seem very well-run and the route to get where we are today very harmonious/uncontroversial in comparison.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Marten

[cowdenbeath]

On 22/04/2022 at 14:42, Craig the Hunter said:

Really wouldn't be surprised if Broomhill try and get in. 

Can change their name to Broadwood FC.

[Ginaro]

"There will almost certainly be 2 Lowland League teams at Broadwood next season amidst a minor reshuffle of home venues that is currently being worked out." says Prorege on https://www.nonleaguematters.co.uk/forums/index.php?threads/clyde-leaving-broadwood.7109/#post-149282

On 22/04/2022 at 14:42, Craig the Hunter said:

Really wouldn't be surprised if Broomhill try and get in. 

[Voice of Reason]

23 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Simple answer is there was no pyramid until the last decade, with the bulk of the Juniors only on board in past few seasons, and non-league was split between Junior and non-league Senior, with the Junior clubs being from predominantly populated areas and the non-league Senior clubs (Edinburgh area excepted) being from rural areas and simple force of population meant Junior sides were stronger as there were more players and fewer part-time options for guys from Ayrshire/Lothians/Glasgow in the national leagues. A lot of the Junior clubs formed after the Scottish League was created so have been outside-looking-in from the start. Then again, the first 50 years of the Scottish League was so tumultous, there are Junior clubs that played at national Senior level originally either as original or follow on clubs.

TL;DR evolution in isolation.

In my opinion!

The founders of the Lowland League recognised that there was a huge gap in the West of Scotland and that "Junior" clubs, particularly in the West, were much stronger both on and off the field than many of the clubs who took the plunge to join the SLFL. The plan was always to expand the SLFL to 32 clubs when/if more traditionally Junior clubs from the West joined. The SLFL has now done a 180 degree turn on this and does not wish to expand. 

I do wish people would stop asking for increased relegation from the Lowland League. What is needed is increased promotion. Relegation is important to allow less successful clubs to drop to their natural level but the overpowering need is to increase promotion opportunities. The plan was to grow the SLFL gradually to 32 clubs over four seasons by promoting 6 clubs and relegating 2 each season.

Let's hope the original vision of the Lowland League is rekindled.

[Boaby Fisher]

Thank you to everyone who answered my question and contributed to my education on the Scottish non-league scene, It is much appreciated. 

[Cyclizine]

On 25/04/2022 at 22:04, cmontheloknow said:

Simple answer is there was no pyramid until the last decade, with the bulk of the Juniors only on board in past few seasons, and non-league was split between Junior and non-league Senior, with the Junior clubs being from predominantly populated areas and the non-league Senior clubs (Edinburgh area excepted) being from rural areas and simple force of population meant Junior sides were stronger as there were more players and fewer part-time options for guys from Ayrshire/Lothians/Glasgow in the national leagues. A lot of the Junior clubs formed after the Scottish League was created so have been outside-looking-in from the start. Then again, the first 50 years of the Scottish League was so tumultous, there are Junior clubs that played at national Senior level originally either as original or follow on clubs.

TL;DR evolution in isolation.

In my opinion!

I think this is pretty accurate for how things developed in the Central Belt. From a North of Scotland point of view, for years, when spaces became available in the Scottish Football League, any applications from Highland League clubs were always voted down by the League clubs. Until 1994, the only SFL club in the historic Highland footprint was Aberdeen! This meant that the Highland League was a very strong (and historically senior) league, difficult to compare to the West and East Juniors of the time as they'd never meet in competition, but generally a far higher standard than the East and South of Scotland Leagues of the time. The junior game in the North has never been at the level that it was in the West and East. Once Ross County and the combined Inverness clubs were elected to the league, followed several years later by Elgin City and Peterhead, the Highland League lost a lot of its depth. This in turn had a knock-on effect on the North Juniors and North Caledonian League (another story in itself!), as ambitious clubs there were elected to the Highland League.

On 26/04/2022 at 00:53, Gordon EF said:

Cove and Kelty both have very significant financial backing compared to almost all of the clubs they've passed on their rise up the leagues. Without that backing, it's hugely unlikely that they'd be looking at starting next season in the Championship and League One respectively.

I'm not fully au fait with the Kelty situation, but Cove have been very successful in courting corporate sponsorship, even back in Highland League days. There does seem to be a bit of a myth that they have a rich sugar daddy bankrolling them, but in truth they actually have multiple sponsors (and the advantage of being able to offer jobs in those sponsors to part-time players). It will be interesting to see how this goes next season when they go to a hybrid model.

 

12 hours ago, Voice of Reason said:

I do wish people would stop asking for increased relegation from the Lowland League. What is needed is increased promotion. Relegation is important to allow less successful clubs to drop to their natural level but the overpowering need is to increase promotion opportunities. The plan was to grow the SLFL gradually to 32 clubs over four seasons by promoting 6 clubs and relegating 2 each season.

You can't have increased promotion without increased relegation, for the sake of sporting integrity. Is there any evidence for the 32 clubs plan? You're implying that the ultimate aim is to have a two division set-up: is this e.g. Premier/First or East/West divisions? Not that I doubt you, but the original SFA plan was for two 10 team North-South regional divisions. The Highland League petitioned to become the North feeder in its own right, leading to the creation of the Lowland League. You're implying you've got some insider knowledge here. If the plan is truly to have 32 clubs, why haven't the Lowland League invited any more applications in the last several years (disregarding the controversial "guest" teams)?

Edited April 27, 2022 by Cyclizine

[Gordon EF]

49 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I'm not fully au fait with the Kelty situation, but Cove have been very successful in courting corporate sponsorship, even back in Highland League days. There does seem to be a bit of a myth that they have a rich sugar daddy bankrolling them, but in truth they actually have multiple sponsors (and the advantage of being able to offer jobs in those sponsors to part-time players). It will be interesting to see how this goes next season when they go to a hybrid model.

Yeah, I've heard this before. But isn't it essentially a case of them being bankrolled through sponsorship rather than them just having a fantastic commercial department? The guy that owns them owns the Balmoral group, who funnel money into the club, along with a few other oil and gas guys. These companies surely aren't getting real value from the money they're putting in.

It's just another way to financially back a football club. Rather than the Brookes Mileson model of just stumping up cash or the 'alleged' Willie Gray model of cash stuffed into brown envelopes.

If the PIF Saudi sovereign wealth fund and some of their partners start paying well over the odds for 'sponsorship' of Newcastle, it's practically no different from them just pumping in money. It's not like the commercial director at Newcastle has just started doing a fucking amazing job or Newcastle became hugely more sponsorable over night.

The bottom line is that Cove have much more financial resources than they would if Moorhouse and his group were to ditch them. Same with Kelty.

[Cyclizine]

30 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Yeah, I've heard this before. But isn't it essentially a case of them being bankrolled through sponsorship rather than them just having a fantastic commercial department? The guy that owns them owns the Balmoral group, who funnel money into the club, along with a few other oil and gas guys. These companies surely aren't getting real value from the money they're putting in.

It's just another way to financially back a football club. Rather than the Brookes Mileson model of just stumping up cash or the 'alleged' Willie Gray model of cash stuffed into brown envelopes.

If the PIF Saudi sovereign wealth fund and some of their partners start paying well over the odds for 'sponsorship' of Newcastle, it's practically no different from them just pumping in money. It's not like the commercial director at Newcastle has just started doing a fucking amazing job or Newcastle became hugely more sponsorable over night.

The bottom line is that Cove have much more financial resources than they would if Moorhouse and his group were to ditch them. Same with Kelty.

You can argue the same for any club in the league though. No-one can survive on gate receipts alone. Some clubs are better than others at getting sponsorship. As long as it's sustainable, I don't really see the problem, it's always been so.

[vikingTON]

A 'sponsorship' model that involves giving players jobs in affiliated companies is not comparable to a commercial manager flogging an advertising board to a local bakery or matchday hospitality.