Lowland League 2021-22 General Chat

[FairWeatherFan]

The LL board have come out with a response to today's podcast discussion.

http://slfl.co.uk/statement-pyramid-play-off-rule-changes/

Quote

The SLFL Board has noted that there has been misinformation circulating regarding the proposed changes to the Pyramid Play-off Rules.

 For the avoidance of doubt, the Scottish FA stated clearly that approval of our League rules for this season was not dependent on a positive result regarding the change of the boundary between the Highland and Lowland Leagues.

The Scottish FA has invited the Lowland League to submit proposals for the development and strengthening of the League to a meeting to be arranged in September. The SLFL Board had asked two Board members to develop such plans but they have both resigned without any progress having been made. Consequently, the remaining Board members will be bringing forward proposals for discussion with all clubs, the aim being to improve and strengthen the League and its pivotal position in the “Pyramid”. Clubs will be contacted for their views in the near future.

 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

When Fraser talks of ventilation, he means with the SPFL.  There's little intention of ventilation the other way.

Another thing that won't go away is LL2, a concept that was born out of the desire to keep the Juniors at arms length had they gained access to tier 6 but is probably now viewed by the clubs as a good way of saving their arses by taking control of tier 6 and dropping into another Lowland run league as opposed to WoS or EoS.  Delaying the inevitable of course but when it comes to self preservation then anything and everything is on the table.

They are worse than the SPFL.

I know this has been discussed before and others disagree, but I don't mind the idea of a Lowland League East and West at Tier 6.

Ultimately the two biggest problems with the pyramid in the Lowland area now are the lack of relegation spots between Tiers 5 and 6, and the inappropriate placing of the South of Scotland league. This should in theory address both of these issues, since you'd expect more movement between the Lowland League divisions, and the South would be shifted down to Tier 7. Yes, in the short term you might have the league run by the "wrong" people, but ultimately the clubs would fairly quickly find their own levels and the league boards would have to change to reflect that.

[Burnieman]

25 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The LL board have come out with a response to today's podcast discussion.

http://slfl.co.uk/statement-pyramid-play-off-rule-changes/

So why haven't the SFA approved of the rule changes yet.............

".......the remaining Board members will be bringing forward proposals for discussion with all clubs, the aim being to improve and strengthen the League and its pivotal position in the “Pyramid”.

So, LL2 then to save the arses of the weak?

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I know this has been discussed before and others disagree, but I don't mind the idea of a Lowland League East and West at Tier 6.

Ultimately the two biggest problems with the pyramid in the Lowland area now are the lack of relegation spots between Tiers 5 and 6, and the inappropriate placing of the South of Scotland league. This should in theory address both of these issues, since you'd expect more movement between the Lowland League divisions, and the South would be shifted down to Tier 7. Yes, in the short term you might have the league run by the "wrong" people, but ultimately the clubs would fairly quickly find their own levels and the league boards would have to change to reflect that.

The EoS and WoS already fil that need at tier 6 and below.  Why would we want the LL to move into that space when they can't even run their single league with any level of competency or respect towards those leagues below.  The SoS issue is a red herring frankly.

It's about empire building, and keeping relegation at arms length for a few more seasons for half the league.

[craigkillie]

7 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

The EoS and WoS already fil that need at tier 6 and below.  Why would we want the LL to move into that space when they can't even run their single league with any level of competency or respect towards those leagues below.  The SoS issue is a red herring frankly.

It's about empire building, and keeping relegation at arms length for a few more seasons for half the league.

It's not really a red herring. Every concept of promotion and relegation from the Lowland League is impacted by having the SoS there - their mere presence is already potentially unbalancing the promotion play-off by ensuring that one of the EoS/WoS sides gets home advantage in the play-off. If you were picking your ideal pyramid structure then you wouldn't have them there, and this would be a way to accelerate that move.

I don't see how it would keep relegation at arms length - clubs would still get relegated to Tier 6, most likely more of them. The fact that Tier 6 would be called something different is neither here nor there.

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I know this has been discussed before and others disagree, but I don't mind the idea of a Lowland League East and West at Tier 6.

Ultimately the two biggest problems with the pyramid in the Lowland area now are the lack of relegation spots between Tiers 5 and 6, and the inappropriate placing of the South of Scotland league. This should in theory address both of these issues, since you'd expect more movement between the Lowland League divisions, and the South would be shifted down to Tier 7. Yes, in the short term you might have the league run by the "wrong" people, but ultimately the clubs would fairly quickly find their own levels and the league boards would have to change to reflect that.

Mainly because it's the same nonsense divide that existed with the Juniors/Seniors. There's little difference between the bottom end of the EoS Premier and WoS Premier and what would be the top end of their respective First Divisions if the pyramid had been fleshed out by now.

The West has worked hard to gain sponsors that go into the running of the entire league, not just the premier. A LL2 West has the chance to cannibalise those efforts. The same being true of the East. Why sponsor the WoSFL when you could sponsor the LL, why sponsor the WoS Cup when you can sponsor the new and improved LL League Cup.

[Burnieman]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

It's not really a red herring. Every concept of promotion and relegation from the Lowland League is impacted by having the SoS there - their mere presence is already potentially unbalancing the promotion play-off by ensuring that one of the EoS/WoS sides gets home advantage in the play-off. If you were picking your ideal pyramid structure then you wouldn't have them there, and this would be a way to accelerate that move.

I don't see how it would keep relegation at arms length - clubs would still get relegated to Tier 6, most likely more of them. The fact that Tier 6 would be called something different is neither here nor there.

The SoS can take part in a three way play-off for 2 spots. The LL as it stands will never go above 2 spots, but at least it would facilitate (99 times out of 100) the EoS and WoS Champs going up automatically.

It isn't worth the upheaval the LL would cause by attempting a takeover of tier 6, the WoS and EoS wouldn't accept it for starters.

It's about time the LL had an "adult conversation" with the EoS, WoS and SoS about "ventilation". The fact that this has not been discussed at LL board level shows that they're not wanting that adult conversation.

[stulch]

The LL board have come out with a response to today's podcast discussion.
http://slfl.co.uk/statement-pyramid-play-off-rule-changes/

The SLFL Board has noted that there has been misinformation circulating regarding the proposed changes to the Pyramid Play-off Rules.
 For the avoidance of doubt, the Scottish FA stated clearly that approval of our League rules for this season was not dependent on a positive result regarding the change of the boundary between the Highland and Lowland Leagues.
The Scottish FA has invited the Lowland League to submit proposals for the development and strengthening of the League to a meeting to be arranged in September. The SLFL Board had asked two Board members to develop such plans but they have both resigned without any progress having been made. Consequently, the remaining Board members will be bringing forward proposals for discussion with all clubs, the aim being to improve and strengthen the League and its pivotal position in the “Pyramid”. Clubs will be contacted for their views in the near future.

 
The only strengthening that will be beneficial for football is for the better teams below the LL to get into the LL as soon as possible at the expense of the weaker teams in the LL. Time to stop p*ssing around...

[FairWeatherFan]

8 hours ago, Burnieman said:

The SoS can take part in a three way play-off for 2 spots. The LL as it stands will never go above 2 spots, but at least it would facilitate (99 times out of 100) the EoS and WoS Champs going up automatically.

It isn't worth the upheaval the LL would cause by attempting a takeover of tier 6, the WoS and EoS wouldn't accept it for starters.

It's about time the LL had an "adult conversation" with the EoS, WoS and SoS about "ventilation". The fact that this has not been discussed at LL board level shows that they're not wanting that adult conversation.

You would have thought the LL Board would have learned from the SPFL Board/Working Groups attempts at reconstruction. Maybe have all the parties involved in discussions to work out a common goal.

As we've now had a couple of people involved in the LL Board mention LL2 in some form which has consequences for multiple leagues.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, stulch said:

 
The only strengthening that will be beneficial for football is for the better teams below the LL to get into the LL as soon as possible at the expense of the weaker teams in the LL. Time to stop p*ssing around...

True, but if this is being handled at the professional game board level rather than through the pyramid working group it will only be about the Club 42 playoff. Why would two LL board members give up their blazers and lie about this and why would it take so long for the SFA to approve this season's LL rules if it hasn't been linked to the Club 42 playoff issue? Think it's pretty clear which party is telling the truth and which is being compelled to toe the party line.

Edited August 26, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

One good thing about the Braves model is that it does lead to a little transparency.

 

[Dev]

FWIW.

Now that there are a handful of clubs in the WoS promotion race which are licenced it is time for that to be recognised by any Lowland League proposals. The presence of the SoS at Tier 6 needn't be an issue for the time being.

I suggest automatic relegation for the bottom two clubs in the Lowland League regardless of any clubs being promoted to the SPFL or relegated down from the SPFL to the Lowland League.

This with automatic promotion for two of the three Tier 6 League's champions (subject to licence). The Tier 6 Play-Offs would continue with the top two Tier 6 Champion clubs being promoted with the third placed Champion club to play the third bottom Lowland League club for its' place in the League. 

If there are extra clubs in the League because of relegation from from the SPFL (and no club promoted from the Lowland League e.g. if a Highland League club won the promotion Play-Off) then the third bottom club would be automatically relegated and the fourth bottom club would contest the Play-off with the third placed Tier 6 Champion club.

Having said this it is equally important that the SPFL stop ducking automatic relegation from the Division Two. The Play-Off there would be a straight two legged contest between the Highland and Lowland League's Champions. There would also need to be guaranteed two down relegation put in place from the SPFL2 by a set date e.g. after five more seasons. That would have to be guaranteed regardless of any subsequent "re-structuring" proposals by the SPFL !

I don't see the good in having the Lowland League operating at Tier 6. Stick with Tier 5 alone.

I don't think that the presence of any SPFL "B" teams operating as add-ons to Tier 5 Leagues matters at all but they must not be in the League Table. They should operate as a an organised series of friendlies with Tier 5 clubs running at the same time as the Lowland and Highland League's season. This was the talented kids in these "B" teams get their experience (for what that is worth?) and they don't interfere with the Tier 5 Leagues. If they contribute via financial donations all well and good. That would be just a bonus.

No. I don't think that there should be more than 16 clubs in either of the Tier 5 leagues.

[vikingTON]

11 hours ago, stulch said:

 
The only strengthening that will be beneficial for football is for the better teams below the LL to get into the LL as soon as possible at the expense of the weaker teams in the LL. Time to stop p*ssing around...

Not true. What would be beneficial for football is for the Lowland League to be abolished, the vile, Old Firm Colts to be removed permanently, and a new Level 5 league set up after purging the most craven and tinpot clubs from the system. Starting with 'Broomhill'.

Vacancies to be filled from the levels below - mostly West/East but also the SoS winner if eligible. 

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by vikingTON

[Gordon EF]

Surely there can't be anyone out there who still believes a word Uncle George says? This is a guy who's own club felt so fucked over by him that they unaffiliated themselves with him and took their name with them.

Everything he does is a petty little attempt at empire-building.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just biding my time for another SPL type split.

 

[Gordon EF]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Just biding my time for another SPL type split.

 

Quote

“My sense is that somewhere in the middle of that, maybe 24 or something like that…you could still keep the pyramid going, but the focus would be on the full-time, professional clubs that can really grow the game.

 

“Because ultimately what happens at the top, trickles down to the smaller clubs. So you can still keep all the payments and residuals flowing down

It's funny. These guys never actually say anything about how the game would grow or what "grow" even means in this context. It kind of sounds like all he's really talking about is a name change. So tiers 1 and 2 can be called SPFL and current tiers 3 and 4 can be called something else but it'll all just work exactly the same way.

Why does nobody ever say to these guys "Hang on there. Nothing you've just said makes any kind of sense or actually means anything".

Clubs like Hibs, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline, Ayr have been around for over a century. What on earth are they really going to do to "grow" the game that they can't do now? Scotland has amongst the highest domestic football spectator numbers in the world in a climate where we compete with the Premier League on our doorstep as well as all the top leagues and Champions League on TV. How much "growth" is there realistically left to squeeze out of this supposedly tiny population.

Because it's a safe assumption he's talking about money rather than developing talent.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

 

It's funny. These guys never actually say anything about how the game would grow or what "grow" even means in this context. It kind of sounds like all he's really talking about is a name change. So tiers 1 and 2 can be called SPFL and current tiers 3 and 4 can be called something else but it'll all just work exactly the same way.

Why does nobody ever say to these guys "Hang on there. Nothing you've just said makes any kind of sense or actually means anything".

Clubs like Hibs, Motherwell, Dundee, Dunfermline, Ayr have been around for over a century. What on earth are they really going to do to "grow" the game that they can't do now? Scotland has amongst the highest domestic football spectator numbers in the world in a climate where we compete with the Premier League on our doorstep as well as all the top leagues and Champions League on TV. How much "growth" is there realistically left to squeeze out of this supposedly tiny population.

Because it's a safe assumption he's talking about money rather than developing talent.

Feck knows. League One and Two don't get a ton of money once it gets spread amongst whatever 24 clubs take up the top two positions.

Even then there would probably have to be parachute payments and/or a compensation agreement between the 24 and the rump. In the same way there was between the SPL and SFL. So they wouldn't get all of it anyway. Then we know the voting rights are rigged in the favour of the Top 2 tiers as well.

Anyone that speaks up for regionalisation as some sort of benefit to L1 and L2 clubs can just look at how the SFA and SPFL have been trying to scrap the boundary at Tier 5. At a proper part time level with Scotland's geography regionalisation is meaningless.

[BS7]

I think RG maybe has a point, and more understanding that maybe isn’t immediately apparent due to his knowledge of the American market.

For me there’s a pretty neat split between the full time clubs - around 24 - the most pro part time clubs - around 40 - and the rest of the pyramid.

I think abroath and Falkirk show you don’t want to make movement between full time and part time impossible but I think looking again at the structure underneath the top two leagues could be meaningfully reviewed.

[FairWeatherFan]

44 minutes ago, BS7 said:

I think RG maybe has a point, and more understanding that maybe isn’t immediately apparent due to his knowledge of the American market.

For me there’s a pretty neat split between the full time clubs - around 24 - the most pro part time clubs - around 40 - and the rest of the pyramid.

I think abroath and Falkirk show you don’t want to make movement between full time and part time impossible but I think looking again at the structure underneath the top two leagues could be meaningfully reviewed.

12-12-18 was a perfectly fine idea. That many ran from the idea even before the daftness of the 8-8-8 split, due to the 18 is too big line.

Restructuring isn't a problem. It's the idea that some how having more than 24 clubs in the SPFL is detrimental. It doesn't save on much money when parachute payments on compensation gets paid out. It doesn't make TV or sponsorship more attractive as they're already competing in different divisions.

It's the Artful Dodger picking the pocket of the poor instead of the rich.

[Gordon EF]

52 minutes ago, BS7 said:

I think RG maybe has a point, and more understanding that maybe isn’t immediately apparent due to his knowledge of the American market.

For me there’s a pretty neat split between the full time clubs - around 24 - the most pro part time clubs - around 40 - and the rest of the pyramid.

I think abroath and Falkirk show you don’t want to make movement between full time and part time impossible but I think looking again at the structure underneath the top two leagues could be meaningfully reviewed.

Restructuring is fine. Taking into account the natural dividing lines between full-time, professional part-time, and what are basically amateur or quasi-amateur clubs in that restructuring is also fine. 

But implying that clubs like Montrose and Clyde playing in the same league or a club like Elgin City being part of the SPFL is somehow holding back a club like Hibs from achieving some vague, un-quantified, mythical "growth" betrays a pretty deep lack of thought.