Stephen O’Donnell

[Barney Rubble]

2 minutes ago, AJF said:

Lets be clear, O'Donnell never played badly last night. It was his lack of end product that most people are holding against him but in a 1-0 away victory against Austria then you will take that performance all day.

However, right/wing back (along with striker) is most definitely one of our priority positions that we need to upgrade on - and I don't imagine I'd be alone in having that opinion. People are quick to say that O'Donnell is criticised for every mistake he makes but the exact same happened with Patterson. The advantage that Patterson (and Ramsey for that matter) has here is age and potential.

We are often critical about not giving young players an opportunity and I think this is a great time to do so, particularly in a position where the player they'd replace has had an average/mediocre international career - which is not intended to be insulting at all, just realistic.

Good post for the most part.

But would you be happy for Scotland to lose v Israel due to a Patterson (or Ramsey) mistake/misjudgement and put it down to age and potential?

Do we really have that luxury?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

O'Donnell is exactly the sort of player fans traditionally complain about being overlooked in favour of some average diddy playing for one of the bigot brothers tbh

[AJF]

13 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Good post for the most part.

But would you be happy for Scotland to lose v Israel due to a Patterson (or Ramsey) mistake/misjudgement and put it down to age and potential?

Do we really have that luxury?

Of course I wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a hypothetical argument where we lose a match based on a scenario that may or may not happen.

We could also flip the argument and say would you be happy for Scotland to lose v Israel after O'Donnell's lack of end product spurns chances? I'm not saying that is what would happen as it's not a strong argument either way in my opinion.

I think we are close to the stage where replacing O'Donnell in the starting line up would not see us materially weaker if you compare what each player can bring, so in that sense, I'd be looking to trust the youth.

[gannonball]

1 hour ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Wonder why Everton bid for patterson and not O'donnell?

They need to speak to some of the scouts on here.

Because they are looking for a long term potential replacement for Seamus Coleman, signing a guy only a few years younger would be pretty silly.

 

[Barney Rubble]

3 minutes ago, AJF said:

Of course I wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a hypothetical argument where we lose a match based on a scenario that may or may not happen.

We could also flip the argument and say would you be happy for Scotland to lose v Israel after O'Donnell's lack of end product spurns chances? I'm not saying that is what would happen as it's not a strong argument either way in my opinion.

I think we are close to the stage where replacing O'Donnell in the starting line up would not see us materially weaker if you compare what each player can bring, so in that sense, I'd be looking to trust the youth.

I understand your logic, and I agree on the general principle.

However, I do not think Steve Clarke has that option while this campaign is still alive. He'd get roasted if he tried it now and the younger players were found to be weak points if we failed to reach the play-offs.

[AJF]

1 minute ago, Barney Rubble said:

I understand your logic, and I agree on the general principle.

However, I do not think Steve Clarke has that option while this campaign is still alive. He'd get roasted if he tried it now and the younger players were found to be weak points if we failed to reach the play-offs.

Yeah, agreed. I doubt he will make that decision to displace SOD at this stage, but it can obviously go both ways.

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, gannonball said:

Because they are looking for a long term potential replacement for Seamus Coleman, signing a guy only a few years younger would be pretty silly.

 

Is this something they have said? Or conjecture?

I dont think that is something they have actually said, so we don't know what there looking for. Bar a right back.

They could get O'donnell for next to nothing. But their not interested, no team in England is.

[Barney Rubble]

5 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Is this something they have said? Or conjecture?

I dont think that is something they have actually said, so we don't know what there looking for. Bar a right back.

They could get Tavernier for next to nothing. But they're not interested, no team in England is.

Have a think about it.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

5 hours ago, gannonball said:

Because they are looking for a long term potential replacement for Seamus Coleman, signing a guy only a few years younger would be pretty silly.

 

What a shame. If only SOD were 7 years younger he’d be an EPL regular.

[Gordopolis]

Of course I wouldn't be happy about it, but it's a hypothetical argument where we lose a match based on a scenario that may or may not happen.
We could also flip the argument and say would you be happy for Scotland to lose v Israel after O'Donnell's lack of end product spurns chances? I'm not saying that is what would happen as it's not a strong argument either way in my opinion.
I think we are close to the stage where replacing O'Donnell in the starting line up would not see us materially weaker if you compare what each player can bring, so in that sense, I'd be looking to trust the youth.

It's the first time since friendlies were abandoned (almost completely) that I've thought we could do with one or two - as opportunities to start the likes of Patterson or maybe even Ramsay a few times to get past the 'what if' anxiety.

[Dunning1874]

11 hours ago, Jacky1990 said:

f**k sake, I though we were over the SOD debate.

Is he a world beater? No.

Is he particularly great? No.

Was he the best option we had available last night and did he perform his role to the best of his ability and put in a good performance? Yes.

The guy has good and bad games. As does Robertson. As does McGinn. In fact, he has probably had just as many very good and very bad games as our captain over the past couple years.

Hes frustrating at times but hes fine.

I don't think there's even a debate to be had there. In the time we've been playing the back three, O'Donnell has consistently been better than Robertson for Scotland.

Obviously when Robertson is at his best he's ridiculously far ahead of O'Donnell at his best, while O'Donnell at his worst is much worse so he stands out badly when he does have a shocker like the Czech Republic game, but he has more good games than bad.

[Detournement]

10 hours ago, eez-eh said:

That’s just complete pish though, he was awful in the Euros opener.

Aye but so was the majority of the team. If we have a 6/10 or 7/10 from RWB we still lose that match. 

Over the run SOD has cost 2 or 3 of goals and created 2 or 3 goals with . Not athestically pleasing but in terms of end product similar to Robertson. 

 

Edited September 9, 2021 by Detournement

[accies1874]

I don't think there's even a debate to be had there. In the time we've been playing the back three, O'Donnell has consistently been better than Robertson for Scotland.
Obviously when Robertson is at his best he's ridiculously far ahead of O'Donnell at his best, while O'Donnell at his worst is much worse so he stands out badly when he does have a shocker like the Czech Republic game, but he has more good games than bad.

I think it's worth saying that teams will try and stop our left side which can free up O'Donnell - and that actually suits him as he's much better with space to run into.

[Zazu]

18 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Aye but so was the majority of the team. If we have a 6/10 or 7/10 from RWB we still lose that match. 

Over the run SOD has cost 2 or 3 of goals and created 2 or 3 goals with . Not athestically pleasing but in terms of end product similar to Robertson. 

 

I think that's a bit harsh, our performance overall wasn't that bad. 

We created far more clear cut chances than the Czechs, who are probably slightly better than us on paper, they just had an elite finisher whereas we don't. 

O'donnel was definitely a weak link against them. 

You say we still lose with a 7/10 RWB, but I'm not sure that's the case. If we had a wing back playing with any sort of key threat in the final third - be it pace, dribbling ability, consistent final ball etc. - we might have actually scored. 

If we played a system with a back 4 I'd be more than happy with O'donnel starting every match, solid defensively and never lets you down. As a wingback in a system with a very narrow midfield and forward line he's far too limited going forward to be a first choice starter. Every single Scotland game I've watched the past year or so, so many attacks break down when he gets the ball high up the pitch on the right flank, can't do anything dangerous with it so turns and plays it back to the centre backs. Nothing against the guy but I find it really frustrating. 

In a system with a back three, two sitting midfielders, a 10 and two central strikers - the wing back needs to be good going forward more than they need to be a great defender IMO. 

[No_Problemo]

Obviously SOD did well last night, however I’m not sure that means he is an automatic starter against Israel. 
 

They tend to sit in against us when they come to Hampden, so we possibly need a bit more quality higher up the park in our RWB. If Patterson sits on Rangers bench for the next month, then he isn’t the option either though. 

[well fan for life]

Mental seeing Motherwell's right back being Motherwell's right back in a Scotland jersey and having folk foaming at the mouth over it. 

Is he a technically limited player? Yes. But nobody can fault how much he puts in to games. Even when he's not having much joy he's still making himself available. In that Czech game he was the easy pass for Hendry which would have seen us not concede a goal from the fucking half way line. The other night when he burst through on goal he was just fucking knackered after having Covid. Mental how your RWB bursting through on goal and having their shot saved appears to now be a stick to beat someone with on the Wednesday after praising it on the previous Saturday.

He's Scotland's first choice right back at the moment and it's his jersey to lose. If Patterson can oust Tavernier from the starting XI every week at Rangers he'll have a better case for starting for Scotland. Similarly with Ramsay if he keeps on improving. Even now it's horses for courses. I'd probably put Patterson in against the Faroes where we are more likely to control possession for longer periods of the game. 

Edited September 9, 2021 by well fan for life

[AJF]

9 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

Mental seeing Motherwell's right back being Motherwell's right back in a Scotland jersey and having folk foaming at the mouth over it. 

Is he a technically limited player? Yes. But nobody can fault how much he puts in to games. Even when he's not having much joy he's still making himself available. In that Czech game he was the easy pass for Hendry which would have seen us not concede a goal from the fucking half way line. The other night when he burst through on goal he was just fucking knackered after having Covid. Mental how your RWB bursting through on goal and having their shot saved appears to now be a stick to beat someone with on the Wednesday after praising it on the previous Saturday.

He's Scotland's first choice right back at the moment and it's his jersey to lose. If Patterson can oust Tavernier from the starting XI every week at Rangers he'll have a better case for starting for Scotland. Similarly with Ramsay if he keeps on improving. Even now it's horses for courses. I'd probably put Patterson in against the Faroes where we are more likely to control possession for longer periods of the game. 

It has nothing to do with him being Motherwell's right back, it's to do with the player.

I don't think many (or any?) are using his saved shot as a stick to beat him with. Do I think he should've taken an extra touch across the defender before shooting? Yes, but I don't see many using this as an argument against him, it's the repeated poor crosses and backwards passing that folk are highlighting.

Additionally, people were highlighting the same criticisms well before Nathan Patterson was on the national scene, it's not as if this is just a new development just because he has some competition for his spot now.

Edited September 9, 2021 by AJF

[Bing.McCrosby]

11 hours ago, Barney Rubble said:

Have a think about it.

I have thought about it, tavernier would require a significantly higher transfer fee than o'donnell. 

Now your turn to think!

[The Moonster]

17 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

It's a bit weird that some people will continue to criticise SoD for his attacking 'weaknesses', despite him having a tremendous game last night defensively. 

Patterson gets rave reviews from some for doing one thing decently against Moldova, but having a bit of a nightmare defensively. 

Thank God Patterson wasn't playing last night, Austria would have had a field day down our right. 

The problem is people have essentially picked a side in this argument now and don't debate honestly - exaggerated terms get thrown around depending on which side you are on - I think your post is a fine example with SOD being "tremendous" and "thanking God" that Patterson wasn't playing, I think that's a bit OTT. I thought SOD had a good game in attack and defence the other day, with his attacking lacking a bit of quality which could've seen us score more goals. There were a few times I felt he was caught of position/not close enough to his man which allowed balls (admittedly from deep) into the box. The people on SOD's side will gloss over those wee mistakes but at the same time jump all over them when Patterson makes them. This works the other way too with Patterson fans jumping on every loose SOD pass and over-egging Pattersons ability. 

I think the reality is that both players are fine for Scotland right now with the hope that Patterson goes on to be a bit better than fine. If we go 3-5-2 against Israel, I'd start Patterson and try and force Solomon back into his own half but I won't be pissed off if SOD starts ahead of him. 

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, AJF said:

It has nothing to do with him being Motherwell's right back, it's to do with the player.

Bollocks.

The VLs who are foaming at the mouth about SOD on Twitter dot com are frequently using "Motherwell" pejoratively. Even more so when judging him against a player who happens to play for Rangers.