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England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 vs Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Match Thread

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16 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

That was Beckham’s one job. There’s plenty footage of Gascoigne playing pinpoint 40 yard passes as well. 

Beckham scored all kinds of goals and created all kinds of assists, consistently. And he did in World Cups and in the Champions League for both Man Utd and Real Madrid. 

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14 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

In the 80s, I read an authorized biography of him. This explained that like a good actor, he had the ability to turn tears on and off at will. Since he was a little boy, he’d used them to manipulate people into giving him what he wanted. 

Was it written by Mystic Meg?

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13 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

On the topic of Gascoigne greeting and the sympathy it brought him…

In the 80s, I read an authorized biography of him. This explained that like a good actor, he had the ability to turn tears on and off at will. Since he was a little boy, he’d used them to manipulate people into giving him what he wanted. 

Phony as they come.  

Reminds me of the Gazza character in Mike Bassett England Manager, who would burst into tears at the drop of a hat for anything.

Christ, that was a terrible film.

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6 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

He completely dominated games from the middle of the park.

Not many players have that ability, but there's no doubt he did, and he proved it at the highest level (although nowhere near enough due to horrible injury and horrible dickheaddedness). Le tissier wasn't that type of player at all, and comparing them shows you don't really understand the influence Gascoigne had on games.

Don't get me wrong, i lived tis. He scored unbelievable goals. He could make them out of nothing, too.

But he was the epitome of a luxury player, and that's why big teams generally avoided him. There's absolutely no doubt that on terms of success Gascoigne is a small fish.

And Beckham a wrung more out of his talent than any other player (although there'll be a few contenders for that). Ultra professional, ultra hard working, and gradually evolved as a player too. I'd rather have him if given the choice to create a team because you could absolutely rely on him. He was brilliant, and was very consistent.

But Gascoigne dictated the game with so much flair. Much more comparable to Scholes, but Gascoigne preferred to go past players (making him more exciting).


I'm 40 and i didn't appreciate it until watching some YouTube footage a while ago. Watching games as a youngster, you often don't realise the really crucial players, and so put more emphasis on goals and assists.

If you're genuinely writing off Gascoigne i reckon doing the same.

Big teams generally avoided Gazza too. 

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6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Alex Ferguson also said Ravel Morrison was the best young player on the planet, and that Phil Jones was one of the best players he ever signed. 

Beckham played CM for Man U, AC Milan, Real Madrid and PSG. At the end of his spell at Madrid he was more influential in there than Zidane.

Folk think talent is purely the ability to beat men, I understand that, but Gascoigne didn't seem to be consistent with it. A handful of special moments a season.

I doubt, if he wasn't a complete waster, English fans would rank him as highly as they do just now. The "what if" players always get rated higher than they should, while the "done it for decades" players get under rated.

100%. 

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3 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Alex Ferguson also said Ravel Morrison was the best young player on the planet, and that Phil Jones was one of the best players he ever signed. 

Beckham played CM for Man U, AC Milan, Real Madrid and PSG. At the end of his spell at Madrid he was more influential in there than Zidane.

Folk think talent is purely the ability to beat men, I understand that, but Gascoigne didn't seem to be consistent with it. A handful of special moments a season.

I doubt, if he wasn't a complete waster, English fans would rank him as highly as they do just now. The "what if" players always get rated higher than they should, while the "done it for decades" players get under rated.

Gascoigne could beat men. But could also pass beautifully (at range and his through-balls), deliver a dead ball, score free-kicks, he was excellent at creating space, his ball control in tight spaces or with a ball coming out the sky was incredible. Pretty much the only thing he couldn't do was head the ball well.

I don't disagree that beating a man is often used as a synonym for talent, but it's reductionist to reduce Gascoigne's play to that alone. It also suggests you've not seen much of him.

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8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Was it written by Mystic Meg?

No, that’s the point. He was known for turning on the waterworks when it suited him long before the 1990 WC. 

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10 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Reminds me of the Gazza character in Mike Bassett England Manager, who would burst into tears at the drop of a hat for anything.

Christ, that was a terrible film.

The Office Boomer GIF by MOODMAN

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28 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

On the topic of Gascoigne greeting and the sympathy it brought him…

In the 80s, I read an authorized biography of him. This explained that like a good actor, he had the ability to turn tears on and off at will. Since he was a little boy, he’d used them to manipulate people into giving him what he wanted. 

Phony as they come.  

Really? About Gazza?

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8 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

No, that’s the point. He was known for turning on the waterworks when it suited him long before the 1990 WC. 

Genuine question:  Was it written before the 1990 World Cup?  

He only joined Spurs in summer 1988.  I wouldn't imagine there had had been a glut of books on him before then.  There might have been some following his big money move south though.  

Either way, his tears in Turin weren't fake.  They weren't remotely impressive either - they framed him as the manchild that became increasingly familiar.  They were clearly entirely genuine though.

Edited by Monkey Tennis

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Sorry*FB_IMG_1624178440404.thumb.jpg.7252a73733e9d6c47abf78784a466e4f.jpg

*Not sorry

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Feck's sake boys. We've had weeks of getting our heids done in being force fed that Gazza goal in 96. We come through Friday's game with a great performance and a result that keeps us in the tournament, and 2 days later all ye's can talk about is Gazza?!

Move on, or move it to another thread.

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The press in England were nuts about Gazza well before the 1990 World Cup. Think back to the time Vinnie Jones attempted to geld him when he was at Newcastle. It really wouldn't surprise me if there'd been rushed biographies of him by then.

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6 minutes ago, DG.Roma said:

Feck's sake boys. We've had weeks of getting our heids done in being force fed that Gazza goal in 96. We come through Friday's game with a great performance and a result that keeps us in the tournament, and 2 days later all ye's can talk about is Gazza?!

Move on, or move it to another thread.

The game was a couple of days ago. What's left to say?

Conversations move on.

Edited by TheJTS98

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1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Either way, his tears in Turin weren't fake.  They weren't remotely impressive either - they framed him as the manchild that became increasingly familiar.  They were clearly entirely genuine though.

I remember Dietmar Hamann saying, especially after moving to England and becoming aware of how the tears in the semi-final were held up as one of the all time iconic moments in English football and how much that played a part in Gascoigne being revered as some sort of tragic hero, that he never understood why the reaction to him wasn't anger rather than reverence. His point being that in any footballing nation which actually takes winning seriously like Germany rather than romanticising failure, a player losing the head like that because they're selfishly concerned about their own suspension when a World Cup semi-final is hanging in the balance in extra-time then disappearing for the rest of the game as they went on to be knocked out would have taken pelters and their reputation would never have recovered.

Anyway, back to Friday night, I'd totally missed O'Donnell's post match interview. You can really tell how much that performance meant to him.

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20 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Genuine question:  Was it written before the 1990 World Cup?  

He only joined Spurs in summer 1988.  I wouldn't imagine there had had been a glut of books on him before then.  There might have been some following his big money move south though.  

Either way, his tears in Turin weren't fake.  They weren't remotely impressive either - they framed him as the manchild that became increasingly familiar.  They were clearly entirely genuine though.

Welp, I took a look on Amazon and can’t find anything remotely close to the book I’m talking about. Maybe I hallucinated the whole thing. It wouldn’t be the first time. Pretty sure I remember telling people about it during the 1990 nonsense though. 

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1 hour ago, Day of the Lords said:

I remember Gascoigne as far back as his £2+million transfer to Spurs. He was an undoubtedly gifted player, but he was not by any stretch the best of his generation. Other than the rocket free-kick in the FA Cup semi, he and Spurs achieved little. Indeed his ridiculous tackle on Charles delayed his transfer to Lazio and iirc resulted in the fee being reduced. 

For Lazio he achieved little other than a late equaliser against Roma in a meaningless league game. He eventually left essentially because Lazio wanted him to be fit. 

He obviously did well at Rangers but he was also surrounded by excellent players, and the rest of SPL at that time (including Celtic) weren't exactly stiff opposition.

Internationally, at WC90 i think he had 2 or 3 assists, missed Euro 92 through the above injury, England failed to qualify for WC94, and he put in a couple of good performances in Euro 96. Hoddle then controversially refused to select him for WC98 after tabloids published photos of him out on the piss making an arse of himself. 

He did absolutely nothing at international level after that. 

 

He was getting on for 30 after 1996, his injury problems from the 1991 FA Cup Final onwards had limited him and he had a mad personal life, so it’s not that big a surprise he did nothing at international level after 1996.

He was a great player but he was a nutter.

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There’s a reason Alex Ferguson names Paul Gascoigne as the one player in his career he wished he’d signed. Ferguson knew how talented Gazza was.  And that sliding doors moment, not playing under the discipline of Sir Alex, is what stopped Gascoigne going onto be one of the best players of his generation.
It’s easy to overlook how naturally gifted he was because of his personality, his off the field shite and the fact that he went to an OF club.
I have a lot of respect for Beckham and what he achieved on a decent amount of ability, but mostly dedication and hard work. He himself has said he wasn’t one of the most gifted players.  But to say he had more natural ability than Gascoigne is laughable.  Gazza could do everything Beckham could do, the passing and the free kicks, but a whole lot more.
Hes a hard guy to like, but in his early twenties he had absolutely everything as a player other than the right mentality. 
 
I think this is what some people miss - in terms of pure natural raw ability, Gascoigne was undoubtedly one of the most talented players of his generation.

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16 minutes ago, DG.Roma said:

Feck's sake boys. We've had weeks of getting our heids done in being force fed that Gazza goal in 96. We come through Friday's game with a great performance and a result that keeps us in the tournament, and 2 days later all ye's can talk about is Gazza?!

Move on, or move it to another thread.

The Gazza thread?

The flawed ex-footballer thread?

 

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52 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Alex Ferguson also said Ravel Morrison was the best young player on the planet, and that Phil Jones was one of the best players he ever signed. 

Beckham played CM for Man U, AC Milan, Real Madrid and PSG. At the end of his spell at Madrid he was more influential in there than Zidane.

Folk think talent is purely the ability to beat men, I understand that, but Gascoigne didn't seem to be consistent with it. A handful of special moments a season.

I doubt, if he wasn't a complete waster, English fans would rank him as highly as they do just now. The "what if" players always get rated higher than they should, while the "done it for decades" players get under rated.

If you really think all those top clubs signed Beckham purely on his football ability then fair play.  He did have a far better career though.

But I don’t think you’ve seen enough of Gascoigne if you think all he did was a couple of highlight dribbles a season. He was young player of the season in the English top league when at Newcastle and player of the season up here for what it’s worth.

He was a major influence in driving his team to the semi final of a World Cup, and European championship six years later. As a 23 year old he was named in the team of the 1990 World Cup along with some decent other names ..

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