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Your first XI vs England


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14 minutes ago, greenockraver said:

Can we still qualify with 3 points?

We'd probably need two groups to have third placed teams with 1 or 2 points, as realistically we'll have a negative goal difference - if we were to lose to England by one goal we'd need to beat Croatia by three (or vice versa) just to get a goal difference of 0.

While it's not impossible that two other teams, eg Turkey or Russia, end up third with three points and a worse goal difference after taking hammerings themselves, it's not likely that things fall that kindly for us. There's also the possibility that three points could leave us bottom anyway.

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Absolutely no reason not to play Gilmour from the start. When he came on as a sub in last friendly game he showed us exactly what we are missing. Someone to come and get the ball from our defence, drive forward and pick a decent pass. No one did this yesterday and our whole team was completely unlinked.

His age isn't an issue - England brought on a 17 year old in their game.

Come on Steve Clark - show some balls.

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I’d like to see something along the lines of this against England:

                            Marshall

           Hanley   Cooper   Tierney

Patterson                                  Robertson

              McTominay        Gilmour

                               McGinn

                  Fraser                Adams

 

I think we are at a stage where we need to go for it so can’t afford to be too defensive. It may play right into England’s hands but that’s a risk we have to take now.

I also came across this graphic on Twitter comparing Patterson and O’Donnell. It looks like it may include Patterson’s minutes across all competitions, but I think it somewhat gives balance to the argument that he is weaker defensively than O’Donnell. He seems to stand up quite well in comparison.

 

 

363CF90C-2EE8-468B-9570-DD747E117EDA.jpeg

Edited by AJF
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1 minute ago, AJF said:

I’d like to see something along the lines of this against England:

                            Marshall

           Hanley   Cooper   Tierney

Patterson                                  Robertson

              McTominay        Gilmour

                               McGinn

                  Fraser                Adams

 

I think we are at a stage where we need to go for it so can’t afford to be too defensive. It may okay right into England’s hands but that’s a risk we have to take now.

I also came across this graphic on Twitter comparing Patterson and O’Donnell. It looks like it may include Patterson’s minutes across all competitions, but I think it somewhat gives balance to the argument that he is weaker defensively than O’Donnell. He seems to stand up quite well in comparison.

 

 

363CF90C-2EE8-468B-9570-DD747E117EDA.jpeg

What's Patterson's stats for tackling his own team mates when their in the opposition box and backheeling the ball out of the park under no pressure?

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17 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The player least comfortable with the ball - by some distance - is SOD.  He was miles out his depth yesterday.

Absolutely. He has to play at the his absolute limit to keep his head above water, and he didn't.

 

18 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I'd also suggest that much of our midfield looked uncomfortable.

Also agreed. They looked disjointed and nervy, but they were bypassed so often in the first half they didn't get a chance to settle.  I thought only McTominay came deep for the ball, and that was straightforward for the Czechs to press, which led to more hopeful hoofs into channels. 

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15 minutes ago, AJF said:

I’d like to see something along the lines of this against England:

                            Marshall

           Hanley   Cooper   Tierney

Patterson                                  Robertson

              McTominay        Gilmour

                               McGinn

                  Fraser                Adams

 

I think we are at a stage where we need to go for it so can’t afford to be too defensive. It may play right into England’s hands but that’s a risk we have to take now.

I also came across this graphic on Twitter comparing Patterson and O’Donnell. It looks like it may include Patterson’s minutes across all competitions, but I think it somewhat gives balance to the argument that he is weaker defensively than O’Donnell. He seems to stand up quite well in comparison.

 

 

363CF90C-2EE8-468B-9570-DD747E117EDA.jpeg

He's not weaker defensively than O'Donnell that's just something fans say as it makes them feel like they know what they're talking about. There's been no evidence of that in any of his appearances for club or country.

He's better in every respect on and off the ball. Its a no-brainer. The concern Clarke will have if he is physically not very strong yet. But apart from that there is nothing he isn't better at than O'Donnell.

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Can we still qualify with 3 points?
3pts with -1/-2 GD is 50/50 when you look at past tournaments. Anything less on the GD front and you're down to around a 20% chance.

Its not letting me upload the chart which shows all the percentages
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36 minutes ago, AJF said:

I’d like to see something along the lines of this against England:

                            Marshall

           Hanley   Cooper   Tierney

Patterson                                  Robertson

              McTominay        Gilmour

                               McGinn

                  Fraser                Adams

 

I think we are at a stage where we need to go for it so can’t afford to be too defensive. It may play right into England’s hands but that’s a risk we have to take now.

I also came across this graphic on Twitter comparing Patterson and O’Donnell. It looks like it may include Patterson’s minutes across all competitions, but I think it somewhat gives balance to the argument that he is weaker defensively than O’Donnell. He seems to stand up quite well in comparison.

 

 

363CF90C-2EE8-468B-9570-DD747E117EDA.jpeg

 

Defending for Motherwell (or Scotland) and defending for Rangers are totally different things. There are games where I could play right-back for Rangers and churn out some of those numbers. The simple fact is that we don't know which of the two is a better defender.

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2 hours ago, Bob Mahelp said:

The McGinn/McTominay/Christie/Armstrong midfield didn't work yesterday, and given that Christie has been in poor form for months now I think his time is up. I'm also struggling to see what Armstrong has ever offered to the national side, so I'd relegate him as well. 

Agree that it didn't work. Seemed unbalanced and awkward line up.

 

1 hour ago, Thorongil said:

Bringing in Gilmour isn’t a gamble IMO. He is better and plays at higher standard than anyone he would be replacing as he won’t be replacing McTominay or McGinn.

Except that mctominay and McGinn we're the weak links in there yesterday.

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4 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

Defending for Motherwell (or Scotland) and defending for Rangers are totally different things. There are games where I could play right-back for Rangers and churn out some of those numbers. The simple fact is that we don't know which of the two is a better defender.

I don't disagree that it's totally different in terms of play style, but I'd argue a defensive duel while playing for Rangers or playing for Motherwell is the same thing. You're getting tested 1v1 defensively and Patterson wins a higher percentage of those compared to O'Donnell.

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4 minutes ago, Juanhourjoe said:

Agree that it didn't work. Seemed unbalanced and awkward line up.

 

Except that mctominay and McGinn we're the weak links in there yesterday.

In a fucked up system. McGinn needs to be more advanced and McTominay battled manfully in an unbalanced midfield due to Armstrong.

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If we draw against England, this discussion becomes redundant.  It's make or break against Croatia where a win near enough guarantees progress.

If we lose against England, then we need to beat Croatia by at least two, but likely three.  The groups we're looking at are mainly A and B.

Groups are decided by GD first, and then H2H second. If Croatia beat Czechs by one goal we'd need to win by 2 at least to even finish 3rd, never mind qualify (depending on England score v Czechs)

Group A

Italy to beat everyone, and keep scoring goals. Draws between everyone else are helpful here.

Wales/or Switzerland to fail to win.  Otherwise, Turkey to win one, and lose one with a neutral GD across the two.

Third placed team to finish on two points, or negative GD of -2/-3

Group B

Belgium to beat everyone, and keep scoring goals.

Otherwise, Belgium could draw with Denmark.  Denmark to draw with Russia or win comfortably. Russia to beat Finland.  Third placed team to have a negative GD of at least -2/-3  

Group C

Austria or Netherlands to win versus each other.

Macedonia to get a miracle result from Ukraine.  This group doesn't look so promising as the third placed team (Ukraine/Austria) is likely to have at least three points and a positive GD.

Group D

Group E

Spain and Poland results yesterday were not at all helpful.  I can't see the third-placed team in this group not qualifying.

Otherwise, Spain to run up scores on Slovakia and Poland (judging by yesterday, not very likely). Sweden to beat Slovakia, and take points off Poland.

Third-placed team likely to finish on 3/4 points with a good GD.

Group F

Highly unlikely to have anything useful here.  Portugal, Germany, and France all likely to get 3 points from Hungary, with one or more draws between each of them.  Third place likely to be on four points, or three points with a positive GD.

Edited by HuttonDressedAsLahm
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1 minute ago, AJF said:

I don't disagree that it's totally different in terms of play style, but I'd argue a defensive duel while playing for Rangers or playing for Motherwell is the same thing. You're getting tested 1v1 defensively and Patterson wins a higher percentage of those compared to O'Donnell.

But when you're in that Rangers defence you are a) on average coming up against poorer players, and b) attacks tend to involve less players thus giving you less to worry about. For example, O'Donnell is more likely to have a left-back overlapping and a forward inside him to also worry about whilst trying to defend, whereas Patterson might be more likely to be defending against the only opponent within 40 yards.

There are areas where defending for a better team are harder, like concentration, counter-attacks, defending in the air, but there are lots more where it's easier. I think the Motherwell situation is more like the Scotland situation right now. However, I do feel that over the next few years we are going to impose ourselves more and more on games (you even saw it a bit yesterday), at which point the pendulum swings the other way.

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5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

But when you're in that Rangers defence you are a) on average coming up against poorer players, and b) attacks tend to involve less players thus giving you less to worry about. For example, O'Donnell is more likely to have a left-back overlapping and a forward inside him to also worry about whilst trying to defend, whereas Patterson might be more likely to be defending against the only opponent within 40 yards.

There are areas where defending for a better team are harder, like concentration, counter-attacks, defending in the air, but there are lots more where it's easier. I think the Motherwell situation is more like the Scotland situation right now. However, I do feel that over the next few years we are going to impose ourselves more and more on games (you even saw it a bit yesterday), at which point the pendulum swings the other way.

id rather just pick the better player between patterson and o'donnell. patterson is clearly better, you cannot get to this sort of level and be as poor on the ball as o'donnell is.

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1 minute ago, DanMc99 said:

id rather just pick the better player between patterson and o'donnell. patterson is clearly better, you cannot get to this sort of level and be as poor on the ball as o'donnell is.

However the obvious trade-off is that O'Donnell was completely untroubled defensively yesterday - the Czechs achieved absolutely nothing down his side, whether that was down to anything good he did or just the success of the system in that respect. You therefore run the risk that if you bring in any of the three other options (Forrest, Fraser, Patterson), you end up being caught out defensively.

You can't make a decision on a defensively position based purely on how good a player is in one facet of the game when there are others to consider.

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11 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

But when you're in that Rangers defence you are a) on average coming up against poorer players, and b) attacks tend to involve less players thus giving you less to worry about. For example, O'Donnell is more likely to have a left-back overlapping and a forward inside him to also worry about whilst trying to defend, whereas Patterson might be more likely to be defending against the only opponent within 40 yards.

There are areas where defending for a better team are harder, like concentration, counter-attacks, defending in the air, but there are lots more where it's easier. I think the Motherwell situation is more like the Scotland situation right now. However, I do feel that over the next few years we are going to impose ourselves more and more on games (you even saw it a bit yesterday), at which point the pendulum swings the other way.

For point a, if Patterson is coming up against the same players that O'Donnell is in the league, then they are coming up against the same level of players surely (Patterson also featured in the Europa League which I'd argue is a higher calibre than domestically in Scotland). I'm not sure why Patterson would be perceived as coming up against poorer players than O'Donnell is just because he plays for Rangers?

Point b I have no complaints with really, O'Donnell is likely to be tested more often and by various different players - I think that's why looking at the percentage of successful defensive duels is a better measure. I'm not saying that Patterson is better defensively than O'Donnell based on those stats, I just think it adds some balance to the narrative where many have been claiming O'Donnell is better defensively.

Edited by AJF
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2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

However the obvious trade-off is that O'Donnell was completely untroubled defensively yesterday - the Czechs achieved absolutely nothing down his side, whether that was down to anything good he did or just the success of the system in that respect. You therefore run the risk that if you bring in any of the three other options (Forrest, Fraser, Patterson), you end up being caught out defensively.

You can't make a decision on a defensively position based purely on how good a player is in one facet of the game when there are others to consider.

he gave possesion away quite easily and he offered nothing going forward, now we need some sort of result , i don't think we can be so negative. I would hate to see him up against the england forward players.

Edited by DanMc99
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Personally this would be my starting XI but there’s no way it’ll be Clarke’s seems like many managers he is too loyal to players who “got us there”. We need to pick the players who are in form.  At the end of the day he’s the manager and I’m not 😂
 

GK Gordon, sorry but Marshall cost us big time yesterday and was only in as he saved the penalty believe he was also dropped by Derby at the end of the season too.  
 

LB Robertson no brainer

RB Patterson this isn’t a must play but I don’t rate O’Donnell and I like the look of Patterson going forward. 
 

CB Tough ones to pick Tierney obviously, Cooper he’s a starter for Leeds so a level above most and then it’s a toss up between the rest but I’ll take Hanley for experience but Gallagher, Hendry, McKenna are all decent enough.  
 

CM McTominay on the RIGHT side where he plays for Man U, McGinn goes without saying and Billy Gilmour, he plays for the European Champions! If you’re good enough you’re old enough.  I’m sorry but McGregor is there on past reputation he’s been poor this season.  
 

ST Adams and Nisbet they score goals, I’m not adverse to Dykes with one of the two but Dykes isn’t the man to stick it in the net he’s the man who holds it up for someone else to stick it in the net.  Personally I’d like to see Nisbet (in form) and Adams (our best ST)

 

 

6339DB6C-5382-4B54-83FB-BBBCC82F17B0.jpeg

Edited by San Starko Rover
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5 minutes ago, AJF said:

For point a, if Patterson is coming up against the same players that O'Donnell is in the league, then they are coming up against the same level of players surely (Patterson also featured in the Europa League which I'd argue is a higher calibre than domestically in Scotland). I'm not sure why Patterson would be perceived as coming up against poorer players than O'Donnell is just because he plays for Rangers?

This isn't really the case for two reasons. First, and fairly obviously, a Motherwell right-back last season had to play against Ryan Kent and Borna Barisic and a Rangers right-back had to play against Nathan McGinley and Jordan Robertson, which affects the average quality. However, as well as that, teams tend to be more defensive in general against Rangers which means that they have fewer of their best attacking options on display when they play them.

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11 minutes ago, DanMc99 said:

id rather just pick the better player between patterson and o'donnell. patterson is clearly better, you cannot get to this sort of level and be as poor on the ball as o'donnell is.

Put it this way if Patterson was at Motherwell would he start in front of O'Donnell. Fuckin right he would. He is better at every aspect of the game. Witness against Luxembourg the way he recovered and shoulder charged their best player off the ball. He's a better defender already.

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