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Take the Knee or Stand Up.


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58 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I think racism has very little to do with education tbh. Plenty of well-educated racists out there. Eton and Oxbridge produce loads of them.

I don't understand the argument that kneeling has lost its meaning. Those who hate it are trying to pretend it's about something else, but I don't understand in what way the meaning has changed.

Maybe it's time to put racists in the spotlight?

Relevant to the first quoted tweet above too - tougher sanctions has been the British way against racism. It has been effective in driving it underground, but the experts in this stuff say it hasn't reduced the number of racist people or the silent discrimination. I've heard a few people say it's better to drag it out into the open, call it what it is and force people to confront it. That's what seems to have been happening in the US.

I know highly educated people can be racist. Education can come from the home not just in academic setting. Their nannies probably don't get paid enough to teach them how not to be arseholes. 

The meaning perhaps is still there but the impact isn't. 

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2 hours ago, latapythelegend said:

In what way has it been dragged into the open though? Taking the knee isn't really doing it. Literally nothing has happened in the UK within the last year to really address the issue. Everybody tiptoes around the issue with gestures.

To drag it into the open you need to physically confront racists face to face.  This country is quite frankly too soft to do that. 

Everyone you see calling this Marxism, or calling BLM extremists - they're the people this is about. Making them feel alienated from decent society, and especially from their beloved football, is what this is all about. Racists believe that most folk think like them, deep down; "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?". Showing them just how much their heroes and their fellow football fans don't think like they do is well, well worth it. They can write-off isolated stunts like holding up a banner or wearing a badge as the players being required to pander to the woke crowd, but not this.

There's something about the knee that gets under their skin and the longer it goes on the further it's getting.

1 hour ago, the snudge said:

I know highly educated people can be racist. Education can come from the home not just in academic setting. Their nannies probably don't get paid enough to teach them how not to be arseholes. 

The meaning perhaps is still there but the impact isn't. 

The nannies get paid to teach them to be arseholes, IMO.

But yes, what they learn at home is us v them. Our people are great and the others are... different. Not as good as us. Should stay where they are. It's hard to persuade people that their parents suck. 

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The optics will reflect very poorly, and it'll look absolutely like we're standing against England. It will be the image on most tabloid back pages too, I fear.

Incorrect. The tabloid back pages will feature John McGinn giving it the GIRFUY to the tearful England fans after sealing his hat-trick while Harry Maguire holds his head in his hands in the background.
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2 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:


Incorrect. The tabloid back pages will feature John McGinn giving it the GIRFUY to the tearful England fans after sealing his hat-trick while Harry Maguire holds his head in his hands in the background.

Wrong.

THATS THE FRONT PAGE.

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Guest TheJTS98
18 hours ago, GordonS said:

This alone would be a good enough reason to do it. If we can't take a knee to be part of a global anti-racism movement then at least we can do it so England fans booing their own team don't think we're on their side to even the tiniest degree. We should be showing solidarity with England's players on this, especially those who've faced a ton of racist abuse.

Asian national teams and leagues aren't doing it. South American national teams and leagues aren't doing it. Cricket national teams that I've seen aren't doing it. It's probable that most competing nations at the Euros aren't doing it. France and Germany's women's teams didn't do it last week.

I'm not sure we can really say this is a global thing. It seems to be a very small number of countries doing it and then claiming it to be global. It's essentially an American thing and some British teams have picked up on it. It doesn't exist in Asia or South America. I don't watch African sport, so don't know about that.

I don't mean this as a personal criticism of you at all, because this is something that is very common in how our media covers things. But there's a cultural chauvinism in America about presenting American cultural norms as global issues, and in the British context we tag onto that through shared language, media, social media etc. But describing taking the knee in a sporting context as a 'global' movement is way off the mark and is just an example of how our media reports the world. There's a big world out there not interested in this.

Edited by TheJTS98
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Quote

I don't understand the argument that kneeling has lost its meaning. 

I think for me it’s just because it hasn’t led to any real change.

The problem is though, whilst I am fully behind the players doing it, it was always going to end up looking like a meaningless gesture because in reality there isn’t all that much that football can really do. I think a lot of what can be done I.e punishing fans who abuse players in the stadium for example, most of them already do. There isn’t actually a lot that football CAN do to bring about real change as this is largely a societal problem.

They have only had one real chance to show some real action in all this time, that was with Kudela and they fucked it up. 

Edited by Jambomo
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42 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I think for me it’s just because it hasn’t led to any real change.

The problem is though, whilst I am fully behind the players doing it, it was always going to end up looking like a meaningless gesture because in reality there isn’t all that much that football can really do. I think a lot of what can be done I.e punishing fans who abuse players in the stadium for example, most of them already do. There isn’t actually a lot that football CAN do to bring about real change as this is largely a societal problem.

They have only had one real chance to show some real action in all this time, that was with Kudela and they fucked it up. 

 

Right decision to support the English boys by doing at Wembley 

 

Real change has been happening for decades and will continue to happen

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But there's a cultural chauvinism in America about presenting American cultural norms as global issues, and in the British context we tag onto that through shared language, media, social media etc.

Getting a bit off topic, but a hundred times this. We gleefully import so much of their culture and I'm far from sure the net effect is positive.
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The debate around taking the knee has become divisive since fans came back....good.

Forget about peoples views on the BLM protest and George Floyd, the players and management's have repeatedly came out and said why they are kneeling/not kneeling. The scenes of England fans booing their own, despite Southgate (who comes across as a gem of a guy it must be said) coming out clearly stating why they are doing, was fucking despicable. 

I think the squad have done absolutely the right thing by taking the knee in the England match in solidarity with the England players, predominantly their black players, who are routinely abused online with racist pish week to week. 

Also wholly support the squad in taking a stand against racism in the other games if thats what they have chosen to do. We need to keep this in the national discussion and, yes, it'll be divisive. But it'll divide between decent people who want equality and the people who dont, i.e. good c***s and bad c***s.

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Fukin hell,taking the knee or stand up does it matter

Surely players/teams are entitled to  show their no to racism message which ever way they feel is appropriate to them not because others feel its one way or not at all.

Personally feel we should have stuck to standing

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3 hours ago, Rovers_Lad said:

Fukin hell,taking the knee or stand up does it matter

Surely players/teams are entitled to  show their no to racism message which ever way they feel is appropriate to them not because others feel its one way or not at all.

Personally feel we should have stuck to standing

The issue is that some of the racist bellend element of the England support have taken us saying we will take a stand as if we are opposing what the English team are kneeling for.

If nothing else, us taking the knee will make the racist c***s fuming and that is always, always, a good thing. f**k em.

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9 hours ago, Rovers_Lad said:

Fukin hell,taking the knee or stand up does it matter

Surely players/teams are entitled to  show their no to racism message which ever way they feel is appropriate to them not because others feel its one way or not at all.

Personally feel we should have stuck to standing

If your issue is sticking with something, then surely we should have stuck with taking the knee? 

What message were we trying to put out by not taking the knee like our opponents? 

Anyway, we have finally made the correct decision. 

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Scotland stopped taking the knee around March time, along with several domestic clubs, after the Kudela incident. We "took a stand" in the March triple header and also in both pre-tournament friendlies. We weren't trying to put out any message by not taking the knee, it was just a continuation of what we were normally doing. However, the possibility of it being misinterpreted/misappropriated, and the desire to show solidarity with England's players meant we correctly decided to change our approach for the game at Wembley.

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