Take the Knee or Stand Up.

[velo army]

It seems that the Scotland squad have decided not to take the Knee and have instead opted to stand up. I had a reflexive cringe at this. I understand that teams up here have been standing up instead of taking the knee, but looking at the Twitter support we're getting from the gammonsphere as if we're standing up to lily livered Marxism or some shite makes me very uneasy.

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

[Thorongil]

I’m fine with it. Whatever the gestures are, they have lost their impact anyway. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

10 minutes ago, velo army said:

It seems that the Scotland squad have decided not to take the Knee and have instead opted to stand up. I had a reflexive cringe at this. I understand that teams up here have been standing up instead of taking the knee, but looking at the Twitter support we're getting from the gammonsphere as if we're standing up to lily livered Marxism or some shite makes me very uneasy.

I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

This was always going to be the problem.  As with any kind of gesture, it will be criticised by otherwise-minded supporters as "empty", and criticised by detractors as "virtue signalling".  In neither case is the criticism totally unfair, but the way the troglodytes within the English league and the English games have recently behaved... these morons couldn't spot a marxist on the Potemkin.

Kneeling before games can't last forever, and because it wasn't moved on when clubs/associations controlled the narrative, it's now stuck in an us-versus-the gammons narrative, which effectively means the UKIP and BNP supporters will win, irrespective of when this finishes.

Had it not been for the moronic fans at England games recently, it would be much less an issue, but the SFA have not owned this.  We're now potentially going to be at Wembley, with our players standing up, and the England players kneeling, which no matter how generous you are with framing, just does not look good.

Edited June 11, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[velo army]

5 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

This was always going to be the problem.  As with any kind of gesture, it will be criticised by otherwise-minded supporters as "empty", and criticised by detractors as "virtue signalling".  In neither case is the criticism totally unfair, but the way the troglodytes within the English league and the English games have recently behaved... these morons couldn't spot a marxist on the Potemkin.

Kneeling before games can't last forever, and because it wasn't moved on when clubs/associations controlled the narrative, it's now stuck in an us-versus-the gammons narrative, which effectively means the UKIP and BNP supporters will win, irrespective of when this finishes.

Had it not been for the moronic fans at England games recently, it would be much less an issue, but the SFA have not owned this.  We're now potentially going to be at Wembley, with our players standing up, and the England players kneeling, which no matter how generous you are with framing, just does not look good.

Aye this is my concern. The optics will reflect very poorly, and it'll look absolutely like we're standing against England. It will be the image on most tabloid back pages too, I fear.

It's easier to just show solidarity with the England lads and take the Knee for this game.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Its an absolute minter refusing to do this.

If it riles you up, good.

If you think its a meaningless gesture, then why is not doing it any better?

 

[LiviLion]

England players being booed for taking the knee while the Scotland players stand.

That's not going to look good for us at all. 

[Joe Terrapin]

Whilst I think the kneeling gesture has lost it's impact and has just become a thing to do I believe there is a solution to it which will confuse the racists. All the white players should kneel and the non white players stand. That way the booers will be confused and wont know who they're booing.

[Richey Edwards]

We should be taking the knee.

I have read taking the knee being described as futile and an empty gesture, as if anybody is under the illusion that taking the knee alone will defeat racism. It's a gesture of solidarity with oppressed people. If you have an issue with taking the knee, then you are part of the reason why people have been taking the knee.

With England's players taking the knee at Wembley and most likely being booed (AGAIN) for doing so, the sight of our players just standing around will be an absolute cringe fest.

[lubo_blaha]

It does piss me off a bit that this is only a story because of the w*nkers having a go at the England team. I didn’t see a single negative comment when our players did it in the March games, in response to the Kamara incident and most teams in the Premiership “taking a stand”.

However, the context of that incident will be lost on the majority and with us being on the European/World stage, it would be a terrible look if we didn’t take the knee alongside England in that game at least. You just have to look at the pond life who are supporting this decision already. Whether we take a stand or a knee we’re showing our opposition to racism but aside from that, the backlash and outrage is something we could really do without.

[invergowrie arab]

I'm for cultural Marxism and the destruction of our stupid way of life.

[AJF]

Kneeling should not be seen as anything other than a group of professionals sending out a clear anti-racism message which nobody should take an issue with.

That being said, I agree that it has lost it's impact - but it should not be a controversial issue. Looking back to when Arsenal faced Slavia Prague after the Kamara incident, Slavia players stood while Arsenal players took the knee facing them and it was one of the most powerful images so I also share the fears that Scotland may not come out of this looking good at all even though I believe our fanbase would have no issues with the players kneeling.

[DukDukGoose]

I mean it's not up to me to decide how other people should be feeling in regards to it all but I'd be kneeling.

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Thorongil said:

I’m fine with it. Whatever the gestures are, they have lost their impact anyway. 

If they've lost their impact why are all the worst people so angry about it?

I think it's having more impact that ever. Anti-racism campaigns that don't make anyone uncomfortable are the ones that don't work.

[paranoid android]

28 minutes ago, AJF said:

Kneeling should not be seen as anything other than a group of professionals sending out a clear anti-racism message which nobody should take an issue with.

That being said, I agree that it has lost it's impact 

Totally agree, but it hasn't lost its impact for me. 

I would admit that I'm probably in the minority on that, but I always find it quite powerful.

LOVE when teams do it at Millwall. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by paranoid android

[GordonS]

58 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Had it not been for the moronic fans at England games recently, it would be much less an issue, but the SFA have not owned this.  We're now potentially going to be at Wembley, with our players standing up, and the England players kneeling, which no matter how generous you are with framing, just does not look good.

This alone would be a good enough reason to do it. If we can't take a knee to be part of a global anti-racism movement then at least we can do it so England fans booing their own team don't think we're on their side to even the tiniest degree. We should be showing solidarity with England's players on this, especially those who've faced a ton of racist abuse.

[Thorongil]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

If they've lost their impact why are all the worst people so angry about it?

I think it's having more impact that ever. Anti-racism campaigns that don't make anyone uncomfortable are the ones that don't work.

I think it’s only the social media people who are bothered about it. 
 

you can’t win with it and will be criticised no matter what you do so no point worrying about it at this point.

[GordonS]

Just now, Thorongil said:

I think it’s only the social media people who are bothered about it. 
 

It's really, really not. That's what folk thought before the Brexit referendum too. These are real people and there's loads of them - some on here have talked about people in their work or family who are exactly like that.

Quote

you can’t win with it and will be criticised no matter what you do so no point worrying about it at this point.

If you're not getting criticised by racists you're not doing anything about racism. Backing down in the face of that sends a message to them that they were right. Now would be the absolute worst possible time to stop.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

This alone would be a good enough reason to do it. If we can't take a knee to be part of a global anti-racism movement then at least we can do it so England fans booing their own team don't think we're on their side to even the tiniest degree. We should be showing solidarity with England's players on this, especially those who've faced a ton of racist abuse.

I completely agree.  Standing with the Czechs, who are having a PR nightmare on racism, and standing up in contrast with the English, are two positions we absolutely do not want to be in.

And completely avoidable.

[Thorongil]

I support taking the knee, I think it was the right thing to do. 
 

at this point though it has long felt like tokenism to me. I’m not bothered either way whether we take the knee or stand and not bothered what anyone thinks of Scotland or the team on that basis. 
 

I am persuaded though by the argument that we should kneel in solidarity with the England team against their lowlife fans.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Thorongil

[Iain]

They should be kneeling and there's no strong argument against it. You can't signal your opposition to racism by giving in to what the racists want you to do. It's madness.