The work shy and bone idle....

[Sweet Pete]

21 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Amongst other things, yes I would.

What's stopping me now is burnout, lack of time and mental issues.

Not working wouldn't remove your mental issues, so it's just another perception issue. It's no good claiming that your life would be great if society was structured differently. It's a complete cop out. You'll never be happy like that. If there are things you want to do in life then either do them or admit to yourself they're only daydreams and move on. There's no reason you can't learn to speak Korean, play the lute or take creative writing classes just because you have a job. You have free time too. Either seek help for the self doubt that's holding you back or don't, but blaming your issues on it being unjust that you have to work because it's holding you back from your life's goals is complete dung.

[Fullerene]

44 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

If you did have universal basic income and didn't need to work, would you actually learn a new language, or skill or instrument? After all, what's stopping you from doing those things currently? Why would you need to stop working to find time for a hobby?

In my previous job, the manager took the view that he needed everyone to be available day or night, 7 days a week whenever there was a need to pull out the stops. 

One woman who came for an interview mentioned that for years she took piano lessons every Tuesday night.  She probably thought that would reflect on how hard working she was.  Instead it indicated how unavailable she would be on Tuesday nights.

D.A. Baracus is right.  Doing something you might actually want to do doesn't count as hard work for some people.

[ICTChris]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Putting aside the deliberate sarcasm, I think you make a valid point; I think it’s about finding a balance.

I’m retiring at Christmas, just a few months ahead of my 67th birthday.  In many ways I’m really looking forward to it, yet I’m very wary of not having enough to keep my mind occupied.  My job is pretty full on and going from that to doing relatively little will take some adjusting.

 

I think having things to do when you retire is absolutely vital. My parents have both been retired for a long time and have a great many things they do to occupy their time, actual productive activities as well. I have other retired relatives who just sit about and do nothing, save watch daytime TV. It’d drive you insane.

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

I'd take sitting at home over sitting in an office every time.

Is there really value in 'working hard' just for the sake of it? I suppose that's up to the individual, but I dislike how 'working hard' is usually only seen in terms of paid employment. If someone is learning an instrument and spends hours a day at it, they are working hard. If someone enjoys hiking they are 'working hard'. Also, how is sitting at home in front of a screen watching TV or playing video games all that different from sitting in front of a screen sending emails, entering data in to spreadsheets and typing Word document? Personal perspective is the main difference there I think, but they aren't really all that different.

If there was something like UBI, it's up to people to fill their time. I feel sorry for anyone that would sit around all day and watch TV and/or play video games, but I don't see that as am argument against such schemes. The main advantage would be choice; if someone was so devoid of imagination that they need paid employment to operate, they could still do that.

Also there is often a perception that simply doing paid employment is somehow 'working hard'. Sitting down all day in front of a computer isn't my idea of 'hard work'. Driving a car or van around is exactly 'hard work' to me. I suppose physical jobs require you to 'work hard', but that's more the nature of the role than the desire to 'work hard'. I think 'hard work' is conflated with paid employment, and we often see politicians jump on that to drive their capitalist bullshit, demonising those who are unemployed.

That hard work isn’t confined to whatever your paid employment is is a good point, there are plenty of ways in which hard work and a good work ethic is valuable outside your employment.  Parenting  is very hard work for example.

I do think that you definitely can work hard at a computer, although I might be biased! Productive and creative work isn’t necessarily physical. I do think that physical work and physicality itself is important though.

[DA Baracus]

27 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

Not working wouldn't remove your mental issues, so it's just another perception issue. It's no good claiming that your life would be great if society was structured differently. It's a complete cop out. You'll never be happy like that. If there are things you want to do in life then either do them or admit to yourself they're only daydreams and move on. There's no reason you can't learn to speak Korean, play the lute or take creative writing classes just because you have a job. You have free time too. Either seek help for the self doubt that's holding you back or don't, but blaming your issues on it being unjust that you have to work because it's holding you back from your life's goals is complete dung.

A huge, possibly deliberate, misinterpretation of what I said.

It's clear from your posts that you absolutely despise me, and I get the impression that you are holding back a bit on what you seem to really think of me (maybe some of it is right mind), and I think that's clouded your thoughts on what I'm saying. I've tried counselling incidentally, with three different people. It's had a limited effect.

I've never claiming not working would make my life great or that it would remove my mental issues. It would give me the space and time to work on them though. Folk are often signed off work with stress or other illness for that very reason. I do think though that my life would immeasurably be better and I absolutely would be able to accomplish more and do more if I didn't have to work though.

You don't know what I currently do in my free time, or what help I'm seeking or have sought (as well as how effective or otherwise it has been), so I'm not sure how you can judge what I've made excuses for. No doubt, I've made excuses for myself in the past, but I haven't done that for a long time now.

In general though having more free time meaning someone can do more things is in no way a controversial point or somehow not true.

I think perhaps we disagree on the general point of working. That's fine; some folk like their work, some folk like the structure work brings, some like both, some don't like working in the slightest. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by DA Baracus

[Detournement]

Unless you are like Aaron Bastani and think that Star Trek is going magically materialise then there will always be plenty of work to be done. 

There will never be a society where large numbers of people choose to live well on UBI while other people do socially necessary jobs like sanitation and personal care. We should obviously aim for a fairer social division of labour, less alienating and better paid jobs and eliminating unproductive and destructive professions but that's a pipe dream at the moment. 

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, Chris McDonald said:

take away their money and replace it with the smart card thing they were talking about bringing in a few years ago but you made it so you could only get basics off it so no drugs, alcohol, fags, games that sort of things 

I think you will like the future. 

[Sweet Pete]

8 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

A huge, possibly deliberate, misinterpretation of what I said.

It's clear from your posts that you absolutely despise me, and I get the impression that you are holding back a bit on what you seem to really think of me (maybe some of it is right mind), and I think that's clouded your thoughts on what I'm saying. I've tried counselling incidentally, with three different people. It's had a limited effect.

I've never claiming not working would make my life great or that it would remove my mental issues. It would give me the space and time to work on them though. Folk are often signed off work with stress or other illness for that very reason. I do think though that my life would immeasurably be better and I absolutely would be able to accomplish more and do more if I didn't have to work though.

You don't know what I currently do in my free time, or what help I'm seeking or have sought (as well as how effective or otherwise it has been), so I'm not sure how you can judge what I've made excuses for. No doubt, I've made excuses for myself in the past, but I haven't done that for a long time now.

In general though having more free time meaning someone can do more things is in no way a controversial point or somehow not true.

I think perhaps we disagree on the general point of working. That's fine; some folk like their work, some folk like the structure work brings, some like both, some don't like working in the slightest. 

I don't despise you at all. I can't as I don't know you. We simply have differing views on a topic. That is, after all, the entire point in a forum.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

1 hour ago, Chris McDonald said:

Ive heard the discussions over the years of 'these work shy scroungers' and having experience of long term unemployment I thin its extremely unfair to tar everybody long term unemployed with the same brish as between the 2013 and the end of 2014 my self confidence was pretty much non existant. I was doing wee bits of volunteer work and getting involved in community projects but starting at BT gave me a platform to turn my life around and get myself to the best place ive ever been mentally and spiritually. When my confidence was non existant i knew a few folk who shall remain nameless who were happy to claim dole money and cross of days on a calendar and would take the piss out of people who were really timid when they got money from the dole or work. I would ask on occassion if they wanted to work and mentioned ways of getting into work through employment agencies, college etc and i would get a response of 'Nah i cannae be bothered doing that' I would look at getting people like this in work by sending them to recruitment agencies and if they dropped out due to this attitude of 'i cannae be bothered' then you take away their money and replace it with the smart card thing they were talking about bringing in a few years ago but you made it so you could only get basics off it so no drugs, alcohol, fags, games that sort of things as its unfair if you have somebody who is trying by going to agencies or college unable to maybe go for a pint and you have your chancers taking the piss. Now the chancers are minimal but they are still frustrating as im going to do my hnc at college in september and at times i feel as if im not getting as many opportunities as i maybe should be although covid is partially to blame for that

You missed big plasma tellys m8.

[parsforlife]

49 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Unless you are like Aaron Bastani and think that Star Trek is going magically materialise then there will always be plenty of work to be done. 

There will never be a society where large numbers of people choose to live well on UBI while other people do socially necessary jobs like sanitation and personal care. We should obviously aim for a fairer social division of labour, less alienating and better paid jobs and eliminating unproductive and destructive professions but that's a pipe dream at the moment. 

UBI isn’t designed to be a single source of income for all.  We have UBI and suddenly the less desirable jobs aren’t taken by those desperate for work,  so the become better paid and more rewarding.   When your not thinking ‘bloody hell this is shit, but got to feed the bairn ’ and more ‘it might not be great but I enjoy the luxuries I can afford with the wages’ they aren’t as bad as they seem now.  Especially if hours are better.

Others might take an attitude that they are content with UBI and instead choose to learn a new skill. Potentially they’ll use that skill later in life to improve society or get themselves a different source of additional income.

There might be people in high stress, high paid roles have  less concern about taking a step back and doing a different job. Someone else might step in and do some of those jobs.

Thats the starting point towards your aims.  It isn’t the only thing needed.

Edited June 15, 2021 by parsforlife

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

UBI isn’t designed to be a single source of income for all.  We have UBI and suddenly the less desirable jobs aren’t taken by those desperate for work,  so the become better paid and more rewarding.   When your not thinking ‘bloody hell this is shit, but got to feed the Nairn’s’ and more ‘it might not be great but I enjoy the luxuries I can afford with the wages’ they aren’t as bad as they seem now.  Especially if hours are better.

The cost of the luxuries would just end up inflating. Things cost what people will pay for them not what they are worth. 

If everyone gets wealthier by the same amount no one is any wealthier.

 

[DA Baracus]

I don't actually think there ever will be a UBI type model introduced, certainly not in the UK, and almost certainly not in an independent Scotland should we ever achieve that.

[Wile E Coyote]

55 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

In my previous job, the manager took the view that he needed everyone to be available day or night, 7 days a week whenever there was a need to pull out the stops. 

One woman who came for an interview mentioned that for years she took piano lessons every Tuesday night.  She probably thought that would reflect on how hard working she was.  Instead it indicated how unavailable she would be on Tuesday nights.

D.A. Baracus is right.  Doing something you might actually want to do doesn't count as hard work for some people.

Be quite happy to be rejected for a job in that place to be honest and if I knew that was the case I would tell them to ram it anyway

Edited June 15, 2021 by Wile E Coyote

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

24 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

I don't despise you at all. I can't as I don't know you. We simply have differing views on a topic. That is, after all, the entire point in a forum.

I don’t really get your ‘what’s stopping you just now’ argument tbh. An additional 8 hours every week day (usually more let’s be honest, plus commuting time) is a huge chunk of someone’s life. I already have various other interests that I do in the evenings or at weekends as well. Of course that additional time every day would enable me to do something else I’m interested in, such as learn a language or whatever that might be.

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I don't actually think there ever will be a UBI type model introduced, certainly not in the UK, and almost certainly not in an independent Scotland should we ever achieve that.

I think if we will see UBI it will be very similar to Universal Credit. 

[parsforlife]

4 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The cost of the luxuries would just end up inflating. Things cost what people will pay for them not what they are worth. 

If everyone gets wealthier by the same amount no one is any wealthier.

 

The less well off proportionally get more wealth from UBI.   

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

The less well off proportionally get more wealth from UBI.   

There is no single definition of UBI. 

If it's introduced by the Tories or the EU it won't benefit the less well off.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

I think if we will see UBI it will be very similar to Universal Credit. 

Aye, from what I can see SG are quite interested in, at least, researching it. It's the way they've implemented other projects like prescriptions, baby boxes and pensioner transport.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

There's more to valuing hard work than just being brainwashed by exploitative capitalists. 

Hunter gatherers or subsistence farmers would starve if they just couldn't be bothered.  They've also good reason to be concerned about free riders. 

There will be deep cultural roots, if not maybe even some evolutionary hard wiring, that cause hard work to be generally viewed as a virtue and idleness a vice. 

It's industrialised societies where there is an opportunity to be idle with little consequence.  Capital owners have learned this lesson pretty well but have a vested interest in keeping pre industrial norms in place for the drones. 

'Subsistence farmers' worked significantly less on an annual basis than workers in an industrial society in any temperate climate around the world. The subjugation of the peasant understanding of time, work and holidays to the countable commodity of factory discipline was roughly Step 1.2 of enacting the Industrial Revolution, everywhere.

Citizens in the high Roman Empire spent around half of their year celebrating some form of state or religious festival, and also sacked off work in the afternoon the rest of the time to go to the bathhouse (more like a catch-all leisure centre). 

Your thesis that industrial society has generated artificial idleness from an otherwise hard-working state of nature has no basis in either history or anthropology. 

Edited June 15, 2021 by vikingTON

[philpy]

The thought of coming to a point in life where I won't be working Seems daunting.  I'm in a job where I'm constantly busy, and my days pass by very quickly.  I have no hobbies as such that would fill the void of retirement when that day comes. I'm very much of the mindset that I would work to the day I drop if I could. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, philpy said:

The thought of coming to a point in life where I won't be working Seems daunting.  I'm in a job where I'm constantly busy, and my days pass by very quickly.  I have no hobbies as such that would fill the void of retirement when that day comes. I'm very much of the mindset that I would work to the day I drop if I could. 

Photography...and your drinking of course. You could go full time at that.