vs Netherlands

[The Moonster]

I actually thought McGregor done well in our play-off matches next to Ryan Jack. Agree that he's highly frustrating though, with everyone fit I don't think he gets a sniff. McTominay and McGinn will be the midfield two with Armstrong/Christie in front of them. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

15 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I actually thought McGregor done well in our play-off matches next to Ryan Jack. Agree that he's highly frustrating though, with everyone fit I don't think he gets a sniff. McTominay and McGinn will be the midfield two with Armstrong/Christie in front of them. 

Celtic fans will correct me, but is it not a case that McGregor is just not played in the right position for Scotland?

We (Scotland) setup as either 4-2-3-1 or 5-2-3, and in either instance our two sitting midfielders are expected to play a withheld, if not defensive role.  We've used Scott Brown there in the past, as well as McArthur, and laterally Jack has proven to be very adept.

McGregor is almost always played there as well - with attacking responsibility put on whoever is in front - be it Armstrong, McGinn, Fraser, Forrest, Christie, Anya, even James Morrison.

McGregor has scored 42 goals for Celtic in the last 5 seasons.  Whichever way you look at it, that isn't a bad return (and even better when you consider he has 12 in 72 in Europe).

However, for Scotland he doesn't ever look like scoring, much less getting into attacking positions.  Is it simply a case that we play him in the wrong position, or that his best position (centre-centre midfield) isn't one we use?

From my amateur observations, McGregor is not an accomplished defensive midfielder.  A number of goals scored in recent years have been from us sitting off attacker 20-35 yards from goal, and McGregor neither cuts out the pass nor closes down the player.

The difference between him and McTominay or Jack is quite startling.  He's not our best defensive midfielder, and he's by a distance not our most creative midfielder either.  Is it just a case that he doesn't excel at either role, and for games where we need players to excel at one or the other (and not simply be there to keep the ball moving) that he struggles?

Perhaps I am being overly critical and/or simply not up to understanding football at this level, but we've found a way of using McGinn at international level, and of getting the best out of a number of players, but McGregor seems to always produce less than he's capable of at Celtic.

[ArabFC]

44 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Perhaps I am being overly critical and/or simply not up to understanding football at this level, but we've found a way of using McGinn at international level, and of getting the best out of a number of players, but McGregor seems to always produce less than he's capable of at Celtic.

McGregor has been shite for Celtic recently, just as he has been shite for Scotland. 

I think it has less to do with positioning than just tiredness and being part of a crud Celtic side.

He can clearly play in a midfield two when partnered with a more defensive player ala Jack.

I'll be shocked if he doesn't start against the Czechs alongside McTominay.

McGinn will (has to) be given the freedom to get forward - it's where he excels for Scotland.

[craigkillie]

3 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Celtic fans will correct me, but is it not a case that McGregor is just not played in the right position for Scotland?

We (Scotland) setup as either 4-2-3-1 or 5-2-3, and in either instance our two sitting midfielders are expected to play a withheld, if not defensive role.  We've used Scott Brown there in the past, as well as McArthur, and laterally Jack has proven to be very adept.

McGregor is almost always played there as well - with attacking responsibility put on whoever is in front - be it Armstrong, McGinn, Fraser, Forrest, Christie, Anya, even James Morrison.

McGregor has scored 42 goals for Celtic in the last 5 seasons.  Whichever way you look at it, that isn't a bad return (and even better when you consider he has 12 in 72 in Europe).

However, for Scotland he doesn't ever look like scoring, much less getting into attacking positions.  Is it simply a case that we play him in the wrong position, or that his best position (centre-centre midfield) isn't one we use?

From my amateur observations, McGregor is not an accomplished defensive midfielder.  A number of goals scored in recent years have been from us sitting off attacker 20-35 yards from goal, and McGregor neither cuts out the pass nor closes down the player.

The difference between him and McTominay or Jack is quite startling.  He's not our best defensive midfielder, and he's by a distance not our most creative midfielder either.  Is it just a case that he doesn't excel at either role, and for games where we need players to excel at one or the other (and not simply be there to keep the ball moving) that he struggles?

Perhaps I am being overly critical and/or simply not up to understanding football at this level, but we've found a way of using McGinn at international level, and of getting the best out of a number of players, but McGregor seems to always produce less than he's capable of at Celtic.

He isn't playing in his best position, because we don't really use that position. And even if we did we'd probably have five or six guys who are better than him. The thing for me with McGregor is that he isn't really much of a leader, he's more someone who likes to be led by others. When he's played with Scott Brown (or even Ryan Jack), he doesn't have to take on much responsibility and just gets on with his own thing. When he's in that midfield last night, he doesn't have the right mentality for it and ends up playing poorly. That's a major issue for him, and it's why I reckon he might end up not starting at the Euros.

Edited June 3, 2021 by craigkillie

[Tartan Blood]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

He isn't playing in his best position, because we don't really use that position. And even if we did we'd probably have five or six guys who are better than them. The thing for me with McGregor is that he isn't really much of a leader, he's more someone who likes to be led by others. When he's played with Scott Brown (or even Ryan Jack), he doesn't have to take on much responsibility and just gets on with his own thing. When he's in that midfield last night, he doesn't have the right mentality for it and ends up playing poorly. That's a major issue for him, and it's why I reckon he might end up not starting at the Euros.

Spot on. Yes, he is not being played in his best position for Celtic or Scotland. But if he was playing in his best position he'd be much further down the pecking order. 

If he was seen as a central attacking midfielder only (his best position), he'd not even be in the Scotland squad. And as a defensive midfielder, he is really just in there through a lack of options and reputation. He did "well" there under Rodgers because he really wasn't expected/needed to do any defending. And when he was expected to, in Europe, Celtic got obliterated. (Not only his fault, I know) Scott Brown has carried him for years.

McGregor himself stated in an interview that his intensity is lower than all other players because he is just there to give the ball to others. So he knows his role, and seems happy to not push himself in either defense or attack. International football really can't afford passengers. Which he kind of is.

I hope he doesn't start. But probably will.

[Ro Sham Bo]

10 hours ago, Peter Grant said:

What I like about Nisbet is that he’s equally capable of scoring or missing against great teams or pish teams. The big occasion doesn’t faze him. Think he’s a fantastic option even from the bench. Go forth and sink England Kevin!

Apart from his missed penalty in last year's Cup semi final and his awol performance in this year's Cup Final you mean? 

He's anything but a big game player. Definitely the type that would cost you the match in a penalty shoot out. 

 

[lichtiemike]

Depay is a class act indeed, but we can't expect him to carry the team on his own.

That’s maybe why he kept falling over, the diving kernt.

[Zazu]

18 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Celtic fans will correct me, but is it not a case that McGregor is just not played in the right position for Scotland?

We (Scotland) setup as either 4-2-3-1 or 5-2-3, and in either instance our two sitting midfielders are expected to play a withheld, if not defensive role.  We've used Scott Brown there in the past, as well as McArthur, and laterally Jack has proven to be very adept.

McGregor is almost always played there as well - with attacking responsibility put on whoever is in front - be it Armstrong, McGinn, Fraser, Forrest, Christie, Anya, even James Morrison.

McGregor has scored 42 goals for Celtic in the last 5 seasons.  Whichever way you look at it, that isn't a bad return (and even better when you consider he has 12 in 72 in Europe).

However, for Scotland he doesn't ever look like scoring, much less getting into attacking positions.  Is it simply a case that we play him in the wrong position, or that his best position (centre-centre midfield) isn't one we use?

From my amateur observations, McGregor is not an accomplished defensive midfielder.  A number of goals scored in recent years have been from us sitting off attacker 20-35 yards from goal, and McGregor neither cuts out the pass nor closes down the player.

The difference between him and McTominay or Jack is quite startling.  He's not our best defensive midfielder, and he's by a distance not our most creative midfielder either.  Is it just a case that he doesn't excel at either role, and for games where we need players to excel at one or the other (and not simply be there to keep the ball moving) that he struggles?

Perhaps I am being overly critical and/or simply not up to understanding football at this level, but we've found a way of using McGinn at international level, and of getting the best out of a number of players, but McGregor seems to always produce less than he's capable of at Celtic.

I agree with a lot of this post, but I think you're over simplifying midfield roles here with the bit I've put in bold. Central midfield roles aren't just 'defensive 'or 'creative' anymore imo. 

In many successful teams Europe wide in the last decade or so, the deepest midfielder isn't primarily a defensive ball winner, and doesn't get forward enough to create many chances. Their role is to always provide an out ball to the defense, and to progress the ball through the oppositions first line of a press or block either through incisive passing to the final third or the occasional dribble. At the risk of being unfairly called out for using buzzwords again: the 'deep lying playmaker role'. See Pirlo when at Milan, Cazorla at Arsenal when he got moved deeper, McGeouch at hibs 17/18, Jorginho in the current Chelsea side. All these players played as the deepest player in the midfield, staying back during attacks and always close to the defense, even though they all had a much more aggressive ball winner next to them who would generally play higher up (Gatusso, Coquelin, McGinn, Kante). Just cause a midfielder plays deep doesn't make them 'defensive' in my eyes. 

MacGregor is nearly always the deepest midfielder for Scotland, even when he plays with Jack. He's played this role well for Scotland in some games, and in others it has ended up with a lot of sideways passing and no real urgency or incision, but at times I think this had been due to a lack of movement or options in front of him. He's definitely had some poor games playing this way for Scotland, but I'm not sure who else I'd trust in that role - I don't think Jack, McGinn, or McTominay have the agility and balance to constantly be playing on the half turn when under a high press, nor the composure to always retain the ball and usually pick the right pass when under pressure. I think Scotland's most balanced double pivot is McGregor with one of those 3 players, depending on the opposition and if McGinn or McTominay are needed to play elsewhere. When McGinn and McTominay were the double pivot recently we really struggled to progress the ball through the midfield from defense, and resorted to lumping it to Dykes even more than usual. 

I think Gilmour will take over this role from McGregor, hopefully soon as I think he is a real talent, but not sure he is ready yet so think it will be McGregor playing it each game in the Euros. 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Zazu

[velo army]

27 minutes ago, Zazu said:

I agree with a lot of this post, but I think you're over simplifying midfield roles here with the bit I've put in bold. Central midfield roles aren't just 'defensive 'or 'creative' anymore imo. 

In many successful teams Europe wide in the last decade or so, the deepest midfielder isn't primarily a defensive ball winner, and doesn't get forward enough to create many chances. Their role is to always provide an out ball to the defense, and to progress the ball through the oppositions first line of a press or block either through incisive passing to the final third or the occasional dribble. At the risk of being unfairly called out for using buzzwords again: the 'deep lying playmaker role'. See Pirlo when at Milan, Cazorla at Arsenal when he got moved deeper, McGeouch at hibs 17/18, Jorginho in the current Chelsea side. All these players played as the deepest player in the midfield, staying back during attacks and always close to the defense, even though they all had a much more aggressive ball winner next to them who would generally play higher up (Gatusso, Coquelin, McGinn, Kante). Just cause a midfielder plays deep doesn't make them 'defensive' in my eyes. 

MacGregor is nearly always the deepest midfielder for Scotland, even when he plays with Jack. He's played this role well for Scotland in some games, and in others it has ended up with a lot of sideways passing and no real urgency or incision, but at times I think this had been due to a lack of movement or options in front of him. He's definitely had some poor games playing this way for Scotland, but I'm not sure who else I'd trust in that role - I don't think Jack, McGinn, or McTominay have the agility and balance to constantly be playing on the half turn when under a high press, nor the composure to always retain the ball and usually pick the right pass when under pressure. I think Scotland's most balanced double pivot is McGregor with one of those 3 players, depending on the opposition and if McGinn or McTominay are needed to play elsewhere. When McGinn and McTominay were the double pivot recently we really struggled to progress the ball through the midfield from defense, and resorted to lumping it to Dykes even more than usual. 

I think Gilmour will take over this role from McGregor, hopefully soon as I think he is a real talent, but not sure he is ready yet so think it will be McGregor playing it each game in the Euros. 

 

Great post. Thanks for your insight amigo.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, Zazu said:

I agree with a lot of this post, but I think you're over simplifying midfield roles here with the bit I've put in bold. Central midfield roles aren't just 'defensive 'or 'creative' anymore imo. 

In many successful teams Europe wide in the last decade or so, the deepest midfielder isn't primarily a defensive ball winner, and doesn't get forward enough to create many chances. Their role is to always provide an out ball to the defense, and to progress the ball through the oppositions first line of a press or block either through incisive passing to the final third or the occasional dribble. At the risk of being unfairly called out for using buzzwords again: the 'deep lying playmaker role'. See Pirlo when at Milan, Cazorla at Arsenal when he got moved deeper, McGeouch at hibs 17/18, Jorginho in the current Chelsea side. All these players played as the deepest player in the midfield, staying back during attacks and always close to the defense, even though they all had a much more aggressive ball winner next to them who would generally play higher up (Gatusso, Coquelin, McGinn, Kante). Just cause a midfielder plays deep doesn't make them 'defensive' in my eyes. 

MacGregor is nearly always the deepest midfielder for Scotland, even when he plays with Jack. He's played this role well for Scotland in some games, and in others it has ended up with a lot of sideways passing and no real urgency or incision, but at times I think this had been due to a lack of movement or options in front of him. He's definitely had some poor games playing this way for Scotland, but I'm not sure who else I'd trust in that role - I don't think Jack, McGinn, or McTominay have the agility and balance to constantly be playing on the half turn when under a high press, nor the composure to always retain the ball and usually pick the right pass when under pressure. I think Scotland's most balanced double pivot is McGregor with one of those 3 players, depending on the opposition and if McGinn or McTominay are needed to play elsewhere. When McGinn and McTominay were the double pivot recently we really struggled to progress the ball through the midfield from defense, and resorted to lumping it to Dykes even more than usual. 

I think Gilmour will take over this role from McGregor, hopefully soon as I think he is a real talent, but not sure he is ready yet so think it will be McGregor playing it each game in the Euros. 

 

Absolutely.  It's the equivalent of the point guard in basketball, right?  The player who takes control of the ball, and gets it to the players in attacking positions.

At Hampden, we've seen even fairly average teams boss games with the entire match played through a single player.  They are generally the small midfielder who has excellent balance, plays with their head up, and is incredibly comfortable with the ball at their feet.  I'm thinking of Rosicky for the Czechs, Hamsik for Slovakia etc. (never mind the obvious Pirlo, De Bruyne, Xavi).

What I've always been struck by is how much better the opposition's equivalent of that player is than what we have to offer.  Fletcher is probably the player best at it we've had in the last couple of decades, and Brown could also do a role, but his agility and technique didn't quite match.

When we've played against the very best teams (Germany, Spain etc.) the difference is even greater, because instead of having to rely on a player like Jorginho, or Modric, the centre backs can step up into midfield (e.g. Hummels), because they are technically strong enough.

Then you look at us, and we've had numerous players fail to take control of that role, and our centre halves (until recently) have been an absolute bomb scare with the ball at their feet.  Without comparing any other attributes, our current defensive options in McKenna, Cooper, Hendry (perhaps not Hanley) are streets ahead of what we've had in the past.  I'm yet to be convinced that Mulgrew was particularly good at that role, unless being comfortable in floating a 50-yard long ball to Fletcher's head is the sole metric being used.

The biggest difference we've seen in the last couple of years is the ability of Tierney and McTominay to take on that role from defence.  That's hardly a surprise since both players could likely play for any country at the Euros.

Your point about playing "on the half turn" is the issue in a nutshell.  McGinn and Jack cannot play that role, and McGregor may be the best, but he still loses the ball far too often, without the risk balance of also creating strong attacking opportunities.  McTominay probably could take on that role, as his ability to retain a ball under pressure is remarkable, and beyond Adams, is probably the most natural athlete we have (which is odd to say of a lanky 6'4" midfielder).

Gilmour may not be the short-term solution (purely on the basis of trust and experience - not ability), but he is undoubtedly the medium/long-term solution, as he's by a distance, the most accomplished Scottish ball-player I've ever seen.

Edited June 4, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[MarkoRaj]

Lads, this is the Scotland forum. It's for slating players who you don't like from other clubs and complaining about nonsense that is factually incorrect and/or easily disproven

I don't want to see any sensible, well thought out posts in here again