Next to go?

[Jan Vojáček]

13 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Based on last 3 seasons I would say top half league 1 with occasionally threatening Championship when other clubs having poor seasons. Then there’s obviously well backed clubs that come into that equation too who we are competing with right now (QP/Cove) and it’ll be interesting to see how all that plays out. Kelty too potentially in future but I’m not overly sure what will happen with them can kind of see them becoming a Montrose type level team.
 

But right now and since we’ve been in Championship there’s not much difference between ourselves and the likes of Ayr, Morton etc apart from what side of the PT/FT line were on and the PT one suits us. Actually see ourselves ahead of clubs like QoTs and even potentially Hamilton soon 

 

Bottom half of League 1 and top half of League 2 not much in it and I think that’ll interchange but I think the smaller clubs will circle the drain and go soon too. Although like I said somewhere else I don’t know how many clubs out with the pyramid are really that much better run or have as much potential as a lot of the teams already in and around league 2. Suppose the West maybe has a few ‘sleeping giants’ but who knows 

I think that's probably very fair. Not that it would necessarily work, but Arbroath have shown this season that they could potentially sustain a full-time team too. If you guys could get crowds of around the 2k-2.5k mark regularly and switched to full-time then I reckon you'd be up there towards the top of the smaller full-time clubs; the likes of Ayr, Morton, Accies, QOS and so on (and I'd include Livingston in that list too, although they are obviously having a fantastic time of it at the moment).

I guess the only issue is when form dips how sustainable the crowds are. But there must be a very decent number of people in the town who have now been bitten by the Arbroath bug and will hopefully carry on supporting the club now, even when things fall away a bit. It's one of my biggest regrets from our time in the Championship - we didn't manage to build any sort of boost to our following off it. We took 2500 to Perth for the Challenge Cup final - and now our average home support is probably about the 300 mark. Massive opportunity missed.

[1320Lichtie]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

Do you think Arbroath will see L2 any time in the next 10-15 years?

Too far off into the future. But with our set up, chairman and board right now who are all really young and hopefully a whole new generation of (talking easily a thousand plus School kids decked out in AFC gear last Friday night) fans id like to hope not. But again that’s way too far in the future. Bottom 2 of L2 though? No chance 

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

4 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

And some people just can’t because they sadly don’t have the ability to do so. Just like some football clubs and the pyramid should in reality let everyone find their place 

Can you explain how a financially stable club like Stenhousemuir (who get the vast majority of income from sources other than gate receipts) can further 'get our act together' other than employ a decent manager and to sign the best players the budget allows?

 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

3 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said:

Can you explain how a financially stable club like Stenhousemuir (who get the vast majority of income from sources other than gate receipts) can further 'get our act together' other than employ a decent manager and to sign the best players the budget allows?

 

 

 

I think Stenhousemuir are a very well run club and probably in and around the position I’d expect them to be with potentially having an Edinburgh City like season and moving into L1 which would be your ceiling? 

[Jacksgranda]

36 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Based on last 3 seasons I would say top half league 1 with occasionally threatening Championship when other clubs having poor seasons. Then there’s obviously well backed clubs that come into that equation too who we are competing with right now (QP/Cove) and it’ll be interesting to see how all that plays out. Kelty too potentially in future but I’m not overly sure what will happen with them can kind of see them becoming a Montrose type level team.
 

But right now and since we’ve been in Championship there’s not much difference between ourselves and the likes of Ayr, Morton etc apart from what side of the PT/FT line were on and the PT one suits us. Actually see ourselves ahead of clubs like QoTs and even potentially Hamilton soon 

 

Bottom half of League 1 and top half of League 2 not much in it and I think that’ll interchange but I think the smaller clubs will circle the drain and go soon too. Although like I said somewhere else I don’t know how many clubs out with the pyramid are really that much better run or have as much potential as a lot of the teams already in and around league 2. Suppose the West maybe has a few ‘sleeping giants’ but who knows 

Rip Van Winkle would get into the SPFL quicker at the current promotion rate as some of those sleeping giants...

[Neilly]

6 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

I think Stenhousemuir are a very well run club and probably in and around the position I’d expect them to be with potentially having an Edinburgh City like season and moving into L1 which would be your ceiling? 

Cowdenbeath, Alloa, Brechin, Arbroath off the top of my head have been in the Championship in the last 10 years. Why on earth would L1 be our ceiling or clubs like us?

Anyone could have a whirlwind couple of years like Arbroath who really knows? 

You are making out Arbroath have found their level in the Championship. You will be relegated again in a couple of seasons. You've done a Leicester. Enjoy the season and enjoy the ride but you will be back at your natural level in the near future and we will see how those 1,000 plus home fans are holding up.

The arrogance is staggering.

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

9 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

I think Stenhousemuir are a very well run club and probably in and around the position I’d expect them to be with potentially having an Edinburgh City like season and moving into L1 which would be your ceiling? 

We missed out on reaching the (promotion to the Championship) playoffs on the final day of the season in successive years not too long ago.

Very often a team can make a few signings that unexpectedly gel well together and really hit it off, find a formation or playing style that really works for them. If you're a well run club financially there are vagaries that really can't be fully planned or accounted for.

 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

11 minutes ago, Neilly said:

Cowdenbeath, Alloa, Brechin, Arbroath off the top of my head have been in the Championship in the last 10 years. Why on earth would L1 be our ceiling or clubs like us?

Anyone could have a whirlwind couple of years like Arbroath who really knows? 

You are making out Arbroath have found their level in the Championship. You will be relegated again in a couple of seasons. You've done a Leicester. Enjoy the season and enjoy the ride but you will be back at your natural level in the near future and we will see how those 1,000 plus home fans are holding up.

The arrogance is staggering.

I’ve not once said we’ve found our level. When asked I said it was probably the top half of League 1 our attendances weren’t far off 1000 before we got into the championship either by the way. 800 and 950 the 2 seasons prior to going up. More like 1500-1800 home fans now bud

 

I think they days are gone like I’ve just said which is why L1 is so strong now. There weren’t as many well run or heavily backed teams the leagues have changed a whole lot even just with the addition of Cove, Kelty and QP receiving great backing too.

 

Seems like there’s maybe a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I think most neutrals would say Stenny ceiling would be League 1 and don’t think that’s unfair 

Edited May 17, 2022 by 1320Lichtie

[an86]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

I think John Christison appointing Lumsden shows exactly the mindset old chairman and boards used to have pre the relegation spot, a complacent and completely old school uninspiring attitude towards the club. We were a league club and that was that. It’s actually embarrassing looking back at how half arsed things were 

I think a lot of fans of a lot of clubs will be nodding along at this. We stayed amateur because we could, counted the rental money and sat in our big palace not really needing to attract any more fans than we already had.

Things have obviously changed to an enormous extreme from us at QP, but we sailed along because the system allowed us to. There is absolutely no doubt we’d have been in the Lowland League with no prospect of return, in the near future, if we hadn’t voted as we did. Certainly not taking any of the current stuff for granted. Never know what’s round the corner.

[1320Lichtie]

And of course @Neilly things can improve and change at clubs. You could easily attract more support or receive a good financial backing and things could change but right now I’d say L1 would be the ceiling surely? I’ve even thought that about the likes of Montrose etc. Montrose are an unbelievably well run football club but I think they’ve hit their ceiling with where they are right now. Much like we have too. Things might’ve changed if we got into the Prem but that’ll never happen now. 
 

No matter what though the pyramid and relegation spot has completely freshened things up in the desired way I think 

Edited May 17, 2022 by 1320Lichtie

[Neilly]

3 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

And of course @Neilly things can improve and change at clubs. You could easily attract more support or receive a good financial backing and things could change but right now I’d say L1 would be the ceiling surely? I’ve even thought that about the likes of Montrose etc. Montrose are an unbelievably well run football club but I think they’ve hit their ceiling with where they are right now. Much like we have too. Things might’ve changed if we got into the Prem but that’ll never happen now. 
 

No matter what though the pyramid and relegation spot has completely freshened things up in the desired way I think 

Montrose could easily have went up through the play offs though had they not buckled in that Airdrie game. They probably win that tie from that position nine times out of ten. They then would have faced a team they finished above in the league for a chance of Championship football. I'd say that's their ceiling.

You need the stars to align sometimes, all variables going in your favour and special things can happen. Like what's happened at Arbroath but there is no black and white way of looking at it really. It's your opinion of course but I find it a bit dismissive when these things aren't just black and white to say team x has a ceiling of y when that's just not how things work in reality.

 

[Vimto90]

And of course [mention=739]Neilly[/mention] things can improve and change at clubs. You could easily attract more support or receive a good financial backing and things could change but right now I’d say L1 would be the ceiling surely? I’ve even thought that about the likes of Montrose etc. Montrose are an unbelievably well run football club but I think they’ve hit their ceiling with where they are right now. Much like we have too. Things might’ve changed if we got into the Prem but that’ll never happen now. 
 
No matter what though the pyramid and relegation spot has completely freshened things up in the desired way I think 

How can montrose have hit their ceiling? There is absolutely no difference between Arbroath & Montrose.

As has been said all it takes is a few belter seasons, good manager etc


Since i started going to games in 2000.

Stranraer, Arbroath, Stirling, Brechin, Dumbarton, Alloa, Cowden have all had time in the championship. 2 are now non league.

Maybe the definition of ceiling is a grey area but no reason most clubs can't drive to at least spend some time in the champ if the right things align.

[Glenconner]

17 minutes ago, an86 said:

I think a lot of fans of a lot of clubs will be nodding along at this. We stayed amateur because we could, counted the rental money and sat in our big palace not really needing to attract any more fans than we already had.

Things have obviously changed to an enormous extreme from us at QP, but we sailed along because the system allowed us to. There is absolutely no doubt we’d have been in the Lowland League with no prospect of return, in the near future, if we hadn’t voted as we did. Certainly not taking any of the current stuff for granted. Never know what’s round the corner.

I watched Pollok v Clydebank last night in a West of Scotland cup tie.

Attendance 750

But worth pointing out it was only £7 to get in. £4 for concessions.

How many would have went had the admission price been say £15?

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

I watched Pollok v Clydebank last night in a West of Scotland cup tie.

Attendance 750

But worth pointing out it was only £7 to get in. £4 for concessions.

How many would have went had the admission price been say £15?

 

Bit of an inflated crowd because it was the first game under the floodlights, Clydebank have a good support, I think it was the last home game of the season in the first season for Pollok as a senior club. With all those factors I think there still would have been 400+ for that price. Guess it depends if it's a one off or the price each week as well

[1320Lichtie]

5 minutes ago, Neilly said:

Montrose could easily have went up through the play offs though had they not buckled in that Airdrie game. They probably win that tie from that position nine times out of ten. They then would have faced a team they finished above in the league for a chance of Championship football. I'd say that's their ceiling.

You need the stars to align sometimes, all variables going in your favour and special things can happen. Like what's happened at Arbroath but there is no black and white way of looking at it really. It's your opinion of course but I find it a bit dismissive when these things aren't just black and white to say team x has a ceiling of y when that's just not how things work in reality.

 

If we hadn’t got up when we did. LOADS OF THINGS that we have done now probably would not have happened and it is that fine a margin.
 

But again no matter what’s happened for as long as I can remember IMO we’ve always had a higher ceiling than the Mo. For me ourselves, Airdrie and Elgin (weird one) always seemed to be the best backed PT teams. 

 

Montrose now in a similar position where they’ve not managed to capitalise and go up which could’ve changed a whole lot for them for the next 10 year but will now be in a league with Dunfermline, Falkirk, Airdrie, QoTS, Kelty, Airdrie and Alloa.
 

Look how good a league that is now it’s crazy and I think it’s that good because of this pyramid relegation spot 

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

22 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

And of course @Neilly things can improve and change at clubs. You could easily attract more support or receive a good financial backing and things could change but right now I’d say L1 would be the ceiling surely? I’ve even thought that about the likes of Montrose etc. Montrose are an unbelievably well run football club but I think they’ve hit their ceiling with where they are right now. Much like we have too. Things might’ve changed if we got into the Prem but that’ll never happen now. 
 

No matter what though the pyramid and relegation spot has completely freshened things up in the desired way I think 

A few years ago it was more than possible for most part time teams who had a good season to get to the Championship. Certainly not outwith the realms of possibility.

I have to say, I am fairy annoyed at these teams with financial backers buying their way to a couple of divisions above where they would otherwise be. One of the things that set lower league football apart from even the Scottish Premier league, let alone the English Premier League that we were all much of a muchness with no one really buying their way above you.

I'd very much enjoy being in a league with Linlinthgow, Auchinleck, Pollok etc but it is a bit dispirting having nouveau riche teams gallop up the leagues.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Too far off into the future. But with our set up, chairman and board right now who are all really young and hopefully a whole new generation of (talking easily a thousand plus School kids decked out in AFC gear last Friday night) fans id like to hope not. But again that’s way too far in the future. Bottom 2 of L2 though? No chance 

I genuinely think your perspective's been warped by so many years of season-on-season improvement. As Neilly says, I think you're confusing the stars aligning for a limited amount of time with something else.  Maybe Arbroath really have taken a step change up in the size of club they are. The real test will be when Dick Campbell goes, the core of the side that's propelled you through the leagues breaks up and you have a tough couple of seasons where you move back the way, rather than continually moving forward.

What Arbroath have achieved on and off the park over the past few years is absolutely enviable. Everyone outside the bubble has just seen it happen too many times before. 

[1320Lichtie]

1 minute ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said:

A few years ago it was more than possible for most part time teams who had a good season to get to the Championship. Certainly not outwith the realms of possibility.

I have to say, I am fairy annoyed at these teams with financial backers buying their way to a couple of divisions above where they would otherwise be. One of the things that set lower league football apart from even the Scottish Premier league, let alone the English Premier League that we were all much of a mutchness with no one really buying their way above you.

I'd very much enjoy being in a league with Linlinthgow, Auchinleck, Pollok etc but it is a bit dispirting having nouveau riche teams gallop up the leagues.

On Auchinleck/Darvel etc I really have no idea what to expect from them. They’ve a brilliant backing but they’re from tiny villages. What actually happens to these clubs and their supports when they start making their way up the leagues is anyone’s guess. When they actually start playing against better teams and not winning things or having their local derbies and getting charged a lot more to get into grounds etc what happens to them?

 

Again a good and interesting thing about the pyramid surely 

[1320Lichtie]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

I genuinely think your perspective's been warped by so many years of season-on-season improvement. As Neilly says, I think you're confusing the stars aligning for a limited amount of time with something else.  Maybe Arbroath really have taken a step change up in the size of club they are. The real test will be when Dick Campbell goes, the core of the side that's propelled you through the leagues breaks up and you have a tough couple of seasons where you move back the way, rather than continually moving forward.

What Arbroath have achieved on and off the park over the past few years is absolutely enviable. Everyone outside the bubble has just seen it happen too many times before. 

You have to be in about it and seeing it on a daily basis to really understand the improvement in the club off the park and in the town. It is ridiculous and again yes this season Is a complete one off, we will get relegated again etc but this last 6/7 years of work has changed everything for us.
 

I really don’t want to turn this thread into a discussion about Arbroath though my overall point is I think this relegation spot has given everyone and every club a real boost and kick up the arse in the 42 and below the 42 which is why the leagues are looking stronger. And if clubs aren’t being run properly or making correct decisions they’ll find themselves slipping 

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, Jan Vojáček said:

I'd previously have said Sons' would probably be mid-table in League One.

The number of seasons East Fife have finished outside of the nine spots between  5th in L1 to 4th in L2 over the past 24 years = 4.

Aside from the perennial L2 clubs, we've probably been the most frustratingly consistent club in Scottish football.