Another St Johnstone European Tour!

[Estragon]

20 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

He had made 18 Premiership appearances by the time he turned 20, and St Johnstone were in the bottom half of the Premiership for almost the entirety of the 2019/20 season which I assume is the one you were referring to. You would most likely have finished in the bottom half but for covid and PPG being used to determine the final positions.

He was already a Northern Ireland youth (maybe U21 too?) international by the time Steve Clarke even took over as Scotland manager, so aside from emptying John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Callum McGregor and the likes from his midfield to fit him in I'm not sure what you'd have expected him to do.

Came in to congratulate the Saintees but wow, I'm actually chuckling out loud at the precision and comprehensiveness of this telt.

Anyway, I remember saying around the Rosenborg game a few years ago that St Johnstone were every Scottish football fan's second team in August - and it seems like not much has changed.  An absolutely fantastic result - fingers crossed you can finish the job next week.

[Shipa]

In the cold light of day, still an outstanding result. Had hoped we could keep the scoreline respectable, to go ahead out there and come away with the draw is beyond expectations, keeping the tie very much alive. On top of that, every player out there played their heart out, gave it all for the team, and showed how much this means to them. That attitude is, I feel, a huge part of our success.

I asked the question, when we one the double, how do we top that next season? Last night was a huge step in  that direction, next week we have a very real chance of securing group stage football. While that does not, in itself, bring silverware, it will be an immense achievement and hugely boost the standing of our club, and the financial boost will help us to keep building on this massively succesful era.

[FrankChickens1]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

He had made 18 Premiership appearances by the time he turned 20, and St Johnstone were in the bottom half of the Premiership for almost the entirety of the 2019/20 season which I assume is the one you were referring to. You would most likely have finished in the bottom half but for covid and PPG being used to determine the final positions.

He was already a Northern Ireland youth (maybe U21 too?) international by the time Steve Clarke even took over as Scotland manager, so aside from emptying John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Callum McGregor and the likes from his midfield to fit him in I'm not sure what you'd have expected him to do.

To be fair, everything you've said can be reduced to one line on the timing of Clarkes arrival. 

There is no way McCann should be in a Scotland midfield now. Although there's some kind of hint he could yet get far better than the already stellar player his is, it's quite hard to imagine what that would look like, I dont know whether cos of his playing style or frame or just him being a saints player but it's hard to imagine him in EPL. 

So yeah, no fault of Clarke's, really. 

However, the post you were smacking down was in response to one saying "McCann never showed he wanted to play for Scotland". All the points you've rightly cited attack that idea as much as the one you've responded to. 

He was at Stranraer then slowly breaking through at a lower spl team, and Scotland are better stacked in midfield than anywhere else by quite a distance. Would have been borderline delusional for him to snub NI youth squads because he thought he'd play for Scotland. I know part the reason some footballers succeed as footballers is they have better determination and self belief than average people, but he'd still have been borderline crazy to assume the success he's actually had, never mind ousting Scotlands midfield. 

The post you've responded to would never have been made as a freestanding post, just in response to the other guys idiocy - so you've kind of wellied the ball into an open goal there - although @Estragon@Estragon enjoyd it

Edited August 6, 2021 by FrankChickens1

[Mr Heliums]

I think Clarke was appointed before McCann got U21 caps, but even so the ship had probably sailed by then. Any criticism of Clarke is probably an extraplolation of his choices in other areas of the pitch (eg Considine and O'Donnell), which indicate he would never have looked at McDiarmid anyway . With McCann the criticism is more that the SFA were never interested. It was clear N.I. were sniffing around McCann for years, but Scotland never contacted him. There's a pattern there: I remember Kerr  being overlooked for the U21s too for bizarre reasons. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Mr Heliums

[Fife Saint]

I think Clarke was appointed before McCann got U21 caps, but even so the ship had probably sailed by then. Any criticism of Clarke is probably an extraplolation of his choices in other areas of the pitch (eg Considine and O'Donnell), which indicate he was never looking at McDiarmid . With McCann the criticism is more that the SFA were never interested. It was clear N.I. were sniffing around McCann for years, but Scotland never contacted him. I remember Kerr I think it being overlooked for the U21s too for bizarre reasons. 

I'm sure Kerr wasn't selected for an U21 squad as he would be ineligible for the next set of qualifying before they then called up someone older than Kerr after an injury.

[Mr Heliums]

1 minute ago, Fife Saint said:

12 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

I think Clarke was appointed before McCann got U21 caps, but even so the ship had probably sailed by then. Any criticism of Clarke is probably an extraplolation of his choices in other areas of the pitch (eg Considine and O'Donnell), which indicate he was never looking at McDiarmid . With McCann the criticism is more that the SFA were never interested. It was clear N.I. were sniffing around McCann for years, but Scotland never contacted him. I remember Kerr I think it being overlooked for the U21s too for bizarre reasons. 

I'm sure Kerr wasn't selected for an U21 squad as he would be eligible for the next set qualifying before they then called up someone older than Kerr after an injury.

Yeah you're right - Tommy Wright blowing a fuse at the time.

[PauloPerth]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

He had made 18 Premiership appearances by the time he turned 20, and St Johnstone were in the bottom half of the Premiership for almost the entirety of the 2019/20 season which I assume is the one you were referring to. You would most likely have finished in the bottom half but for covid and PPG being used to determine the final positions.

He was already a Northern Ireland youth (maybe U21 too?) international by the time Steve Clarke even took over as Scotland manager, so aside from emptying John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Callum McGregor and the likes from his midfield to fit him in I'm not sure what you'd have expected him to do.

That season we had about the second best form on points after Celtic from winter break onwards after a disastrous start.  We finished top six, anything else is just your opinion, we were away to Hibs who were the team in sixth where we've got a good record, the weekend football was stopped

Isn't the rule that a player can play under 21 football for one country then change to another?  Who knows if he would by then but an approach should have been made (and long before).  Nobody would expect those names to be emptied to fit in McCann, you over-dramatised that for effect, you just have him in a few squads and bring him on late in a game and he's your player for the future.

[craigkillie]

4 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

That season we had about the second best form on points after Celtic from winter break onwards after a disastrous start.  We finished top six, anything else is just your opinion, we were away to Hibs who were the team in sixth where we've got a good record, the weekend football was stopped

Isn't the rule that a player can play under 21 football for one country then change to another?  Who knows if he would by then but an approach should have been made (and long before).  Nobody would expect those names to be emptied to fit in McCann, you over-dramatised that for effect, you just have him in a few squads and bring him on late in a game and he's your player for the future.

The first game Scotland played after that winter break was in September 2020, which was the same time that McCann was called into the Northern Ireland squad. Less importantly, he was also 20 by then, so in fact not a 19 year-old playing for a top six side.

Scotland shouldn't be picking players in the squad to tie them to us just in case they end up being really good in the future, and we certainly shouldn't have been doing it when we were preparing for two of our biggest games in the last 20 years.

[Jamie_B]

The under 21 thing is neither here nor there. It has nothing to do with Steve Clarke either. I dont think it says much for Scotland’s system at a younger age that players with obvious ability like McCann aren’t getting picked up at under 18 level and below. McCann was (I think) playing SPFL first team football while still eligible in those groups with an obvious pathway to playing in the top flight. He should have been in the system.

He’d probably be knocking on the door of the full squad now given what he’s done of late. He’s not going to get picked ahead of McGregor, Jack, McTominay, McGinn and the rest - but equally he has seven or eight years on the likes of Jack and McGregor and clearly has a long way to go in his development and rise as a player yet. In the long term Scotland’s loss is definitely NI’s gain.

It isn’t exactly a new phenomenon Scotland losing players to NI and ROI through intransigence as far as picking players at a young age goes.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Jamie_Beatson

[PauloPerth]

10 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The first game Scotland played after that winter break was in September 2020, which was the same time that McCann was called into the Northern Ireland squad. Less importantly, he was also 20 by then, so in fact not a 19 year-old playing for a top six side.

Scotland shouldn't be picking players in the squad to tie them to us just in case they end up being really good in the future, and we certainly shouldn't have been doing it when we were preparing for two of our biggest games in the last 20 years.

I think if they're felt to have enough potential then we definitely should.  

[Widge]

Is Ali McCann currently good enough to play in Scotland's midfield, no he's not. Does he have the potential to have been a main stay and as such make it a regret for Scotland, yes. Is he pretty much nailed on first choice for Northern Ireland right now, yes and I'd wager he'll retire in 15 years time with 70+ caps assuming he stays injury free. 

Either way it's all a moot point since he's chosen his international team and at least he has a connection with them. Do I find it amusing that his older brother plays professional rugby for Scotland, yes, but that's the way the world works!

[The Marly]

I’ve no problem with him playing for Northern Ireland. As I said, if he wants to do that then he can bash on. Who you play for at international level though is nobody else’s choice but your own and nobody is to “blame” for him choosing Northern Ireland. He clearly wasn’t particularly bothered about playing for Scotland though and I’ve seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

I think you're a walloper.
I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

[The Marly]

The first game Scotland played after that winter break was in September 2020, which was the same time that McCann was called into the Northern Ireland squad. Less importantly, he was also 20 by then, so in fact not a 19 year-old playing for a top six side.
Scotland shouldn't be picking players in the squad to tie them to us just in case they end up being really good in the future, and we certainly shouldn't have been doing it when we were preparing for two of our biggest games in the last 20 years.

Fair points. But as good as Scotland's midfield is, part of Clarke and his underlings' job is to seek to continue to improve and also look to the future. Ali is younger than the others, at some point in time they will need replacing. I get that Killie fans love Clarke, he's not infallible though.

[tree house tam]

5 hours ago, The Marly said:

I get that Killie fans love Clarke, he's not infallible though.

He acted amateurish by letting the Scotland squad get pished with important games days later and single handedly fucked the Euros group stage. I'd have him out on his ear.

[RandomGuy.]

Watched bits of the game back, and feels like we'll need to find a way to counteract Ryan Babel on Thursday. You wonder if going to a more traditional 3 in midfield, probably with Craig in for Davidson and Wotherspoon sitting deeper, would allow McCann to sit in the space in front of Kerr and block that space. 

Interesting to see how Davidson plans for it tbh, or if Babel even plays. No idea why he was subbed off.

[PauloPerth]

3 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Watched bits of the game back, and feels like we'll need to find a way to counteract Ryan Babel on Thursday. You wonder if going to a more traditional 3 in midfield, probably with Craig in for Davidson and Wotherspoon sitting deeper, would allow McCann to sit in the space in front of Kerr and block that space. 

Interesting to see how Davidson plans for it tbh, or if Babel even plays. No idea why he was subbed off.

Yeah they certainly caused us problems with that ball into the strikers feet in the box early on.  Our centre backs do drop deep for crosses to protect the goal, so it’s key that midfielders are back picking up runners for the ball falling at the edge of the box.

To be fair that centre midfield role sitting deep in front of the defence is perfect for Liam Craig, keep Ali in front of him to harry and win the ball back.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

I feel bad for even saying this after such a monumental result, but Wotherspoon was hopeless wasn't he? So unlike him. I hope he more than makes up for it next week.

[Fife Saint]

Watched bits of the game back, and feels like we'll need to find a way to counteract Ryan Babel on Thursday. You wonder if going to a more traditional 3 in midfield, probably with Craig in for Davidson and Wotherspoon sitting deeper, would allow McCann to sit in the space in front of Kerr and block that space. 
Interesting to see how Davidson plans for it tbh, or if Babel even plays. No idea why he was subbed off.

I like the effort here.

I like even more the fact that the coaching team will have them prepared as f**k and we can just sit back and watch it unfold.

[tree house tam]

Their set up basically counter acted ours, the 4 attacking players, with the movement and technical ability they have just cut through us. They matched us man for man defensively and had a spare behind whichever side they went down, decent tactics tbf. Especially when you have a wingback who can't defend and a rookie playing his second senior game on the other side. It'll be the same on Thursday, massive spaces for them to exploit,  I just hope Callum can either rectify this or counter it. The last thing we need is to be 2 down early on.

Make no mistake Galatasaray are better footballers than St Johnstone and we'll need another big slice of luck again this week.

[The Marly]

I feel bad for even saying this after such a monumental result, but Wotherspoon was hopeless wasn't he? So unlike him. I hope he more than makes up for it next week.

His deliveries were below par. He still did his job well in open play. Spoony never hides and is always capable of something special. Below his best? Yes. Hopeless? No.