Supporting Lowland League clubs against colts

[Gordon EF]

Last night, Lowland League clubs gave an indicative vote in favour of admitting old firm colt sides into the Lowland League for season 2021/22. 11 clubs voted for and 5 voted against. Assuming no clubs change their minds, this will pass at the Lowland League AGM next week.

There are plenty of threads on here discussing the merits or otherwise of colt sides in the Scottish football pyramid and this isn't a thread for this.

I'm trying to encourage all Scottish football fans from every club and every level of the pyramid who is against colt sides to commit to supporting those Lowland League clubs who vote against the colt proposal next week by attending at least one of their home games next season or buying a ticket via the donate a ticket website. The idea is to choose one home fixture for each club who votes against the colts and ideally, give them a sell out crowd (assuming we're allowed back into games by next season) and for those who can't make the game for whatever reason but still want to show their support, to donate online.

If this is a goer, I'll select fixtures where the Lowland League 'good guys' play against each other, once the fixtures are announced, and one home game will be chosen for each club. It'd be great to get out and show our moral and financial support for those clubs willing to stand up for the integrity of Scottish football and aren't willing to sell out their league for £3k. At around £8 per ticket, just 375 extra fans through the gate would be more than the OF are willing to pay each LL club to use their league as practice.

I've started a petition here: https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/notocoltsides

It'd be great if everyone willing to do this could sign it. It's a way to gauge numbers and communicate with folk who're interested. Hopefully, if it takes off, a few Lowland League clubs who indicated they'll vote for this might reconsider (I doubt it but you never know).

The good guys are: Bonnyrigg Rose, Bo'ness United, Civil Service Strollers, Dalbeattie Star, and Edinburgh University.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Gordon EF

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

I support having colt sides in the lower leagues.

They do it in Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, and most aptly in Croatia,. It does not take away from their integrity or morality. 

I would rather be like Croatia, and have Scotland in a World Cup Final, than have the sporting integrity of 2 decades without qualifying for the World Cup. 

I would rather increase the chances of Scotland beating England at football.

I would say it is far more immoral and lacking in integrity to put a part time team finishing 5 places higher in the league, higher in priority than the development of Scottish internationals to make the Scottish international side do well. 

I want Scottish football to do well. 

I want all Scottish clubs to do well in Europe, 

It is a crime to want Scottish football talent to go to waste. That is is the immoral attitude. 

Some people would cut off their nose to spite their face when it comes to Scottish football. 

Support the Scottish national side. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by Thistle Scotland Europe

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

I support having colt sides in the lower leagues.

They do it in Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, and most aptly in Croatia,. It does not take away from their integrity or morality. 

I would rather be like Croatia, and have Scotland in a World Cup Final, than have the sporting integrity of 2 decades without qualifying for the World Cup. I would rather increase the chances of Scotland beating England at football.

Look at that Croatian world cup squad from 2018 and tell me:

• How many of their players have ever played 1 game or more for a colts team?
• Of that total squad, how many colts teams appearences do they have amongst them?
• Do you seriously think colts teams played a significant part in  Croatia getting to that world cup final?

[Andy groundhopper]

What would the reaction be if the HL/LL had a division totally for reserve and colts teams ? both spfl and non league clubs, possibly a benefit to the lower clubs in the short /term . 

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Look at that Croatian world cup squad from 2018 and tell me:

• How many of their players have ever played 1 game or more for a colts team?
• Of that total squad, how many colts teams appearences do they have amongst them?
• Do you seriously think colts teams played a significant part in  Croatia getting to that world cup final?

It's now been 3 years since then. The question is how many are in the provisional 2021 squad for Croatia.

Out of 26 there are 4 players that played for a Croatian 'B' team. It must have been a truly transformative experience for them since most of them got out of there quite sharpish.

They would go on to make a grand total of 1 appearance, 4 appearances, 9 appearances, and 35 appearances respectively.

[Gordon EF]

33 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's now been 3 years since then. The question is how many are in the provisional 2021 squad for Croatia.

Out of 26 there are 4 players that played for a Croatian 'B' team. It must have been a truly transformative experience for them since most of them got out of there quite sharpish.

They would go on to make a grand total of 1 appearance, 4 appearances, 9 appearances, and 35 appearances respectively.

So more players now have played for colt sides than 2018. Unless the finish 2nd at the next World Cup, this will be damning evidence against colt sides. It's actually made players worse.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Every time I see this guff that doesn't understand correlation and causation.

1 hour ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

I support having colt sides in the lower leagues.

They do it in Spain, Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, and most aptly in Croatia,. It does not take away from their integrity or morality. 

I would rather be like Croatia, and have Scotland in a World Cup Final, than have the sporting integrity of 2 decades without qualifying for the World Cup. 

I would rather increase the chances of Scotland beating England at football.

I would say it is far more immoral and lacking in integrity to put a part time team finishing 5 places higher in the league, higher in priority than the development of Scottish internationals to make the Scottish international side do well. 

I want Scottish football to do well. 

I want all Scottish clubs to do well in Europe, 

It is a crime to want Scottish football talent to go to waste. That is is the immoral attitude. 

Some people would cut off their nose to spite their face when it comes to Scottish football. 

Support the Scottish national side. 

I have to remove my humble hat, quote myself, and point them toward some data that proves 'em wrong

On 10/06/2020 at 16:13, AsimButtHitsASix said:

The autist in me just absolutely loves a spreadsheet and analysing data (no idea why I don't look into doing it as a job tbh). So I figured we needed some kind of objective barometer to see what produced the better quality player: loan deals, colt deals or players coming through the lower leagues.

So first I had to decide what constituted a good quality player. I decided the Guardian's list of 100 best players in the world produced every year is a decent barometer. Ex players, journos, coaches, etc from around the world. Should be a decent split. So I looked at these players careers before they made an international debut when they could still be classed as a young or up-and-coming player.

First of all 35 of the players came through at top flight teams without a single game on loan or at a colt club. Basically if yer good enough ye'll get yer game anyway. But that's still only about a third. Here's the rest:

(NB: there is some cross over. Frenkie De Jong, for instance, started playing in the lower leagues for Willem II, signed for Ajax, then started playing for Jong Ajax. So, although he played in the same division for both clubs, only the games for Willem II count as lower league games and his games for Jong Ajax are colt team games)

TOP 100:
29 players came through via Colt teams playing a total of 668 appearances. 15 played more than 20 games for Colt teams
25 players came through after loan spells away playing a total of 978 appearances. Only 15 of them played more than 20+ games away on loan.
28 players came through after playing in the lower leagues playing nearly 1,400 games between them. 24 of them manages more than 20+ games

So it seems that Colt teams aren't any better than the other two systems. They also give young players less games than the other two on average.

TOP 50:
18 players came through via Colt teams playing 407 games. 9 played more than 20 games.
9 players came through via loan spells playing 381 games. 6 played more than 20 games
14 came through lower leagues playing 768 games. 12 played more than 20 games.

TOP 25:
9 colt players, 191 appearances, 4 with 20+ games
3 loan players, 87 appearances, 1 with 20+ games
8 lower league players, 273 appearances, 6 with 20+

TOP 10:
4 colt players 92 appearances, 2 with 20+ games
0 loan players
3 lower league players, 83 appearances, 2 with 20+ games

The higher you get to the absolute legends then it's more likely that clubs aren't gonna be loaning them out. I guess Messi, Mbappe and Ronaldo were always too valuable to spend a season getting "toughened up" in the diddy leagues. Also less likely for these guys to spend time in the lower leagues as these guys would all have been marked out as worldies from a young age so the big clubs would have hovered them up in no time. But, in general, there isn't much difference between the three and, if anything, the best thing to get more players is to have them playing first team football for clubs as early as possible. Not on loan and not via colt teams. Just have big clubs stop snatching all the best players before their baws drap fully.

If you break it down further, by country, you see this entirely based on where players come from. Germany and Spain have B teams so the majority of their players have spent some time in the B teams. Belgium and Brazil have a big drop in quality down the leagues with no B teams so players from there get flung straight into the first team. England and Italy love giving their players game via loan deals so a lot of players from there get games in the lower leagues on loan.

Honestly. I don't think it makes a blind bit of difference for the most part but would say players coming through at lower league teams is possibly preferable to being loaned down to them.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by AsimButtHitsASix

[Thistle Scotland Europe]

There is no shame in proper teams playing colt sides. It happens all the time in friendlies. And in the cups the big teams often play virtual B or colt teams in their starting 11.

I have watched loads of proper part time teams play against second 11’s or colt sides in friendlies. So why does it suddenly become immoral, or against sporting integrity when it happens in competitive games?

They allow colt teams of the big sides to play in lower divisions in Germany, Spain, Portugal, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and most key in Croatia.

I would love to have Croatia’s sporting integrity and morality if it enabled us to reach World Cup Finals, and to beat England.

How is it immoral and evil to have colt teams playing proper teams?

IT IS NOT IMMORAL FOR PROPER TEAMS TO PLAY COLT TEAMS.

It is compliment to the part time teams, because the big sides are saying that these part time teams are the perfect test for their young players. How is that an insult?

It would be a far bigger insult to claim that part time teams are not a good test for the big side’s colt teams.

I support colt teams playing in the lower leagues. It will help develop more top Scottish players. Xavi and Iniesta started at the Barcelona B side. It worked in Spain, at develop Spain players. 

[oneteaminglasgow]

If you can’t tell the difference between a friendly and a competitive game, then I’m not sure what to tell you. You also seem to completely misunderstand, intentionally or otherwise, all of the arguments put forward against Colt sides. Maybe try reading any of them before your next dreadful post, eh?