European Super League.

[SANTAN]

38 minutes ago, sparky88 said:

Looking forward to the realisation from the EPL that the big 6 essentially are the Premier League, for all but a few thousand fans in England. 

It seems to me that UEFA's gradual reforms to the Champions League every TV rights cycle would ultimately lead to a European Super League anyway.

I reckon there's more non top 6 supporters in the UK than there is top 6. Considering the 2nd 3rd and 4th largest cities of the entire country don't have "top 6" clubs would surely mean something. 

[Miguel Sanchez]

2 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Once a player is drafted they’re tied to that club for years and can’t renegotiate their contract. That allows clubs to keep players on artificially low salaries for a period.  It’s only later in their careers they gain free agency.  They can’t force trades in the way footballers can break contracts and be transferred.

It's not that different from football, although in a salary cap league the penalties for acquiring a player of a certain age are comparatively higher. Football still has development fees for younger players.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

Once a player is drafted they’re tied to that club for years and can’t renegotiate their contract. That allows clubs to keep players on artificially low salaries for a period.  It’s only later in their careers they gain free agency.  They can’t force trades in the way footballers can break contracts and be transferred.

Players in football are tied to their club until they reach the age of 23. Only then are they unrestricted free agents. There isn't a draft but essentially as soon as a player signs their first senior contract they cannot become a free agent without permission of their club.

Players absolutely can force trades in US sports. James Harden forced a trade this season.

 

[G51]

Just now, Left Back said:

Once a player is drafted they’re tied to that club for years and can’t renegotiate their contract. That allows clubs to keep players on artificially low salaries for a period.  It’s only later in their careers they gain free agency.  They can’t force trades in the way footballers can break contracts and be transferred.

In the NFL, a player is tied to his rookie contract for four years, with the fifth year option being paid at the rate of a top-ten player in their positions. After that, they're free agents.

Ultimately, this could easily be replicated in the ESL because the ESL clubs would be buying from non-ESL clubs, which will theoretically pay poorer wages. So the clubs will still have the ability to squeeze players new to the ESL. In any case, young players are underpaid in football too.

The advantage the American leagues have that the ESL doesn't is exceptions to anti-trust laws. They're allowed to operate as a cartel. The ESL won't have that and will have to stomp out and lower the value of every other league. This should be a major warning for us.

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

It's not that different from football, although in a salary cap league the penalties for acquiring a player of a certain age are comparatively higher. Football still has development fees for younger players.

Its a totally different concept from football.  As I’ve said agents will be awake to this and ensure players their own wages are protected.

[Jambomo]

18 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Aye it isn't exactly rocket science.

Barcelona, one of the biggest and most successful clubs in the world, are €1B in debt. Where as every owner in the NFL is guaranteed an 8 figure profit per year no matter the results. Changing the economics of how top level football operates seems obvious in this situation.

So this isn't just driven by greed. There is a chance that a massive club like Barca or Juve could do a Rangers (1872)

The pressure to change is coming from the people owed billions of euros.

These clubs are principally the ones who drove wages and transfer values up though.
 

They’d be the main ones determining a wage or transfer value cap and I doubt many teams would be massively upset to implement changes to make things better - few teams really want to spunk millions up the wall in wages and transfers. They don’t need to break away to do this.

[G51]

3 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Its a totally different concept from football.  As I’ve said agents will be awake to this and ensure players their own wages are protected.

Agents can be as aware as they like. If the guys paying the money decide they're not paying as much anymore, and they all hold the same line, then there's nothing the agents can do.

The remaining teams in the EPL/La Liga/Serie A won't be able to come close to these wages because their TV deals will collapse.

[Monkey Tennis]

I hope this bloody nonsense happens.

Football has been eating itself for three decades.  The EPL did something similar in the first place.  I'd love it if we could also donate a couple of clubs.

f**k the lot of them.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Just now, Jambomo said:

These clubs are principally the ones who drove wages and transfer values up though.
 

They’d be the main ones determining a wage or transfer value cap and I doubt many teams would be massively upset to implement changes to make things better - few teams really want to spunk millions up the wall in wages and transfers. They don’t need to break away to do this.

Wages went up because the clubs were actively competing with each other over signings.

They could collude with each other to force down labour costs in the current set up but they would probably fall foul of several EU laws and get massive fines if they did so. Also they are direct competitors and there is fan pressure too. for example clubs could collude to lower the market for Haaland but for the 5 or 6 clubs he could potentially sign for why would they want the winning club to get Haaland at a cheaper price?

There is also fan pressure to make the best signings.

The clubs want a ready made excuse for why they won't pay for the best players and it is simple. We are constrained by the salary cap!

[DukDukGoose]

1 hour ago, weirdcal said:

Actually, there is potential here. A super league that takes the champions of each league every season. Even a championship with promotion relegation for lower countries on the coefficient.. Replace each team with champions of their league each season unless outright winner.
Some form of league of champions.

I'm not sure if this is bait or you don't understand what is happening here?

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

Agents can be as aware as they like. If the guys paying the money decide they're not paying as much anymore, and they all hold the same line, then there's nothing the agents can do.

The remaining teams in the EPL/La Liga/Serie A won't be able to come close to these wages because their TV deals will collapse.

The idea they’ll all hold the same line is laughable.  This is not American sport.

[G51]

Just now, Left Back said:

The idea they’ll all hold the same line is laughable.  This is not American sport.

Of course they'll all hold the same line. That's what a cartel does.

These guys are far, far more interested in making money than they are in winning.

I'm not really sure I share the same optimism that this will crash and burn. I think this (if it happens) is going to be successful.

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, G51 said:

Of course they'll all hold the same line. That's what a cartel does.

These guys are far, far more interested in making money than they are in winning.

I'm not really sure I share the same optimism that this will crash and burn. I think this (if it happens) is going to be successful.

So it’s a cartel then.  How silly of me.  Of course they’ll be able to do all those things then.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/index_en.html

[G51]

1 minute ago, Left Back said:

So it’s a cartel then.  How silly of me.  Of course they’ll be able to do all those things then.

https://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/index_en.html

Are you just not reading my posts or something?

18 minutes ago, G51 said:

The advantage the American leagues have that the ESL doesn't is exceptions to anti-trust laws. They're allowed to operate as a cartel. The ESL won't have that and will have to stomp out and lower the value of every other league. This should be a major warning for us.

 

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

Are you just not reading my posts or something?

 

You’ve now constructed a contradictory argument.  You said they’ll operate as a cartel by all holding the same line but admit they can’t operate as a cartel as it would be illegal.  Which is it then?

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

1 minute ago, G51 said:

Of course they'll all hold the same line. That's what a cartel does.

These guys are far, far more interested in making money than they are in winning.

I'm not really sure I share the same optimism that this will crash and burn. I think this (if it happens) is going to be successful.

I agree.

For those of us with real attachments to clubs it seems completely ludicrous that these clubs would throw away what they have for an Americanised model. But I watch US sports. And I am more likely to watch NFL or NBA if there are two good teams playing.

There are billions of people around the world who have the exact same relationship with European football. They will watch more when the big teams are playing. Do they care about relegation and promotion? No. Did they notice Norwich or Mallorca weren't in the top leagues this seasons? No.

All they will see is two teams they know and they will watch more and the global value of the ESL will go up.

International rights are why this is happening. There is huge money to be made abroad. But Spain doesn't have enough recognisable teams after Barca and Madrid. Same in Italy. And the big clubs in England have to give an even share to the smaller ones.

[Jacksgranda]

1 hour ago, weirdcal said:

Actually, there is potential here. A super league that takes the champions of each league every season. Even a championship with promotion relegation for lower countries on the coefficient.. Replace each team with champions of their league each season unless outright winner.
Some form of league of champions.

That won't happen, this will be a closed shop.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

This has been coming for a long time.  Football sold it's soul years ago, but the problem with having replaced the perceived dull and unimaginative owners and administrators of yesteryear is that whilst they mostly had an emotional attachment to the game, the football philistines who replaced them are interested only in generating money.  And for them too much will never be enough.

And UEFA and the rest can jump up and down but they are culpable in all of this too.  Man City, PSG and Barcelona are but three dismal examples of how corruption has been allowed to go unchecked, and to Hell with the integrity of the sport.  And as for FIFA perhaps they can explain how Quatar come to be hosting next year's World Cup.  And so on.....

In true football fashion there will be some sort of fudge and the whole corrupt caravan will trundle on.  Thank f**k I support one of world football's diddy teams.

[G51]

6 minutes ago, Left Back said:

You’ve now constructed a contradictory argument.  You said they’ll operate as a cartel by all holding the same line but admit they can’t operate as a cartel as it would be illegal.  Which is it then?

Because by (eventually) leaving their domestic leagues and continental competitions, they will cause the value of the domestic TV deals (plus UEFA's CL TV deal) to completely and utterly implode. No clubs will be able to match their spending power then, so they will *effectively* operate as a cartel by imposing a salary cap. This is what the NFL has done, and when it's been challenged in court the judges have said "There's nothing stopping someone from forming a rival league". Guess what? People have tried that, lots of times! They've all failed because the best players have no incentive to join! So the NFL, despite not violating antitrust rules, is an effective monopoly on pro football.

6 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

I agree.

For those of us with real attachments to clubs it seems completely ludicrous that these clubs would throw away what they have for an Americanised model. But I watch US sports. And I am more likely to watch NFL or NBA if there are two good teams playing.

There are billions of people around the world who have the exact same relationship with European football. They will watch more when the big teams are playing. Do they care about relegation and promotion? No. Did they notice Norwich or Mallorca weren't in the top leagues this seasons? No.

All they will see is two teams they know and they will watch more and the global value of the ESL will go up.

International rights are why this is happening. There is huge money to be made abroad. But Spain doesn't have enough recognisable teams after Barca and Madrid. Same in Italy. And the big clubs in England have to give an even share to the smaller ones.

Yeah this is pretty much it. Which then leaves us with a difficult conversation to have: what is the future for every other league not good enough to be a part of the ESL?

I suspect we eventually become college football to the ESL's NFL (but without the dedicated draft pathway): seen as the more traditional, purer form of the sport with all the history, but with none of the good players. The second a player becomes good enough for the ESL, he jumps ship and goes.

You might say it's not all that different from the current situation we find ourselves in.

Edited April 18, 2021 by G51

[Jambomo]

If this doesn’t go ahead then UEFA and the FA’s for each country have to give some kind of punishment. Enough to stop these clubs coming back with this as a threat every time they want something in the future.