European Super League.

[vikingTON]

8 hours ago, Stag Nation said:

I don't disagree about the Old (half-Old?) firm, but ...

First, it's not dramatically different from Spain, Italy or the Netherlands, where three teams dominate. And better then Germany (one club).

Second, it's not seen "as a farce around the world". Very few people outside Scotland either know or care.

Spanish clubs and their fanbases have decried the risk of their league turning into 'the SPL' on a fairly regular basis in the past decade. It's obviously not the centre of anyone's attention in Madrid or Milan, but anyone with a passing interest in the European game knows that there is an absolute nick of a setup in Scotland that they don't want to replicate. 

The comparison with The Netherlands is ridiculous incidentally. The Eredivisie has actually been won by both AZ Alkmaar and FC Twente since the turn of the century - not to mention the often large gulf between a so-called 'dominant' team like Feyenoord and the actual top of the table until this season. 

[Spyro]

On 09/02/2023 at 23:10, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Hearts have a B team in there as well. I’d thought that this was because there was no reserve league any more but now I realise it must be all part of a plan to play  in the Euroconference

I thought Hearts applied for a laugh to derail the Rangers and Celtic teams and help to create a proper reserve league. They didn't expect the LL teams to be stupid enough to actually vote them in and spoil the plan... That's my theory anyway

At least Hearts are using their LL team for developing players. It want be long before the other 2 are full of farmed youngsters that'll never get near the 1st team but in the hope of cashing a decent transfer or 2

[topcat(The most tip top)]

11 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Would it not lead to the rest of the clubs basically shrivelling up due to lack of media interest and just regressing?

To view it through a darts analogy, the rest of the world would become the BDO whilst the PDC goes from strength to strength. I want the OF to f**k off as much as the next guy, but this would be a global thing that might leave those left out, well, fucked.

Luckily for Scotland there’s next to bugger all TV money anyway so the “lack of media interest” couldn’t do too much damage 

[DukDukGoose]

Even if the whole of Europe decided not to watch, the viewing figures in the middle east would be ridiculous.

[VincentGuerin]

On 11/02/2023 at 08:34, Merkland Red said:

Even if the whole of Europe decided not to watch, the viewing figures in the middle east would be ridiculous.

Not really sure about that, to be honest. Depends how the whole thing is structured with kick-off times having a huge impact.

You're not getting a huge tv audience in Saudi Arabia for a game between Real Madrid and Liverpool that kicks off at 11pm on a Wednesday night.

There's a reason the Premier League loves a Saturday lunchtime kick-off. That's what you need for the Asian market.

[ahemps]

On 10/02/2023 at 21:01, Ludo*1 said:

Would it not lead to the rest of the clubs basically shrivelling up due to lack of media interest and just regressing?

To view it through a darts analogy, the rest of the world would become the BDO whilst the PDC goes from strength to strength. I want the OF to f**k off as much as the next guy, but this would be a global thing that might leave those left out, well, fucked.

It would be a lower profile and would have less money but would it really be that much less? The OF hoover up the majority of both anyway.

Leagues survive lower down without the OF. It would be a trade, slightly less money and slightly less coverage but a more competitive league. Depends what you want I suppose?

Would the standard drop? Most clubs compete for players with clubs from anywhere between English National league to league 1. I don't think that would change. It may force more young local players to get a chance, that may not improve the standard but is more appealing to fans to see local guys coming through then a guy released from Northampton. Again it is a trade and depends what you want from following your team?

I would absolutely be in the camp to get rid of the OF as my motivation to watch Scottish league football is all but gone but if they were to leave and the league became competitive then I know I would find that way more appealing. If it wasn't on Sky and there were slightly less players in the league not good enough for Salford then that is something I would be happy to live with.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

On 12/02/2023 at 19:05, VincentGuerin said:

There's a reason the Premier League loves a Saturday lunchtime kick-off. That's what you need for the Asian market.

Initially it was because you don't want to impact the attendances on the normal 3pm games (and English people can't always be trusted to behave at a 5:30 football games if they've been in the pub since lunchtime). Stumbling on the Saturday night TV slot in East Asia was a happy accident but they're not going to give that up any time soon

Similarly, while La Liga's Saturday evening kick offs were originally just to avoid the afternoon heat they've put themselves  in place for the best TV slots in the Americas

A European Super-duper league might see individual teams allocated regular early or late times for home games depending on what time zone they want to market themselves to. 

 

 

[VincentGuerin]

40 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

A European Super-duper league might see individual teams allocated regular early or late times for home games depending on what time zone they want to market themselves to. 

 

 

This would surely be a scheduling consideration, but there's only so much wriggle room. For example, most of Barcelona's games won't be against teams mad for the South American market. Probably just home team's preference.

A whole load of things to be settled, not least what power, if any, the domestic leagues retain. You can't have Superleague using regular weekend slots and kid on the domestic leagues retain any relevance whatsoever, so I think that'll take a while before being introduced. Definitely coming though.

[WFD]

I 100% dislike all the Super League proposals until now. Agree with most of the critics in this thread. But I am not principally against a European league as long as it is inclusive and based on merit. And lower down the chain regionalized. 

 

To break the impasse between top European clubs and ordinary football fans, I have built a model that suits me more. It weirdly somehow still aligns with A22 Sports principles. Just a kick-off proposal, curious if it would be OK for any Scottish clubs. Or if you think it's simply rubbish. 

 

SIMULATION MODEL --> Can be viewed on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSvc-mksNzxw5VQbrCXPL3ZUNnUOCARKIi72p0Cgqkk/edit#gid=0 (just request access and I'll give it to you)

 

Note 1: The clubs filled in the model are a representation of past 2 season, as well as random selected winners of matches based on worst case scenarios. 

Note 2: Whenever the model shows a number (like in D4 of tab 1) this reflects the average attendance of the club in their domestic league (83 means between 82,500 and 83,499 average attendance).

Note 3: Whenever two clubs play against each other, the team in pink went to the next round. 

 

THE MODEL

1. MEMBERS

Member Nations 

• All UEFA nations 
• Potential nations from other confederations (examples: USA, Canada, Qatar, Saudi Arabia) - if 80% of original members agree
• Potential dependent (overseas) territories (examples: Jersey, Greenland, Bermuda, Martinique) - if 80% of original members agree

Member Clubs

• Clubs need to be part of competitions in member nations
• Clubs should have a Euro license (Minimum standards equal to UEFA Licenses)

2. EUROPEAN TOURNAMENTS

Euro Final - Single neutral venue match between the winner of the Euro League & the winner of the Euro Cup (the Super Bowl of football)

Euro League - European league pyramid of 4 levels based on promotion / relegation with 12 (22 matches home + away) teams p. division.  

Main Divisions Format:

• Euro Premier - 1 division of 12 teams - 22 matches 
  • Winner plays Euro Final
  • 11-12 Relegation. 9-10 Potential relegation play-offs
• Euro 1st Division - 2 parallel division (North / South) of 12 teams - 22 matches
  • Winner promotes
  • 2-4 Potential promotion play-offs 
  • 11-12 Relegation. 9-10 Potential relegation play-offs
  • Total 24 teams over all divisions
• Euro 2nd Division - 4 parallel division (North West / North East / South West / South East) of 12 teams - 22 matches
  • Winner promotes
  • 2-4 Potential promotion play-offs 
  • 11-12 Relegation. 9-10 Potential relegation play-offs
  • Total 48 teams over all divisions
• Euro 3rd Division - 8 parallel division (NWN / NWS / NEN / NES / SWN / SWS / SEN / SEW) of 12 teams - 22 matches
  • Winner promotes
  • 2-4 Potential promotion play-offs 
  • 11-12 Relegation out of Euro leagues. 9-10 Potential relegation play-offs against Euro Promotion teams
  • Total 96 teams over all divisions

Euro Promotion:

Qualified for the Euro Promotion are:

• The best 1,2 or 3 teams in Member Nations domestic leagues (depending on Member Nations coefficients) that are not yet member of the Euro League. If teams are on equal positions in different division in the 1st or 2nd domestic divisions a play-off will be taking place. 
• The winners of the Member Nations league cups

Format Euro Promotion:

• Two qualifying rounds with the winner decided after home and away encounters. Participation to this round is based on Member Nations coefficients, those scoring high coefficients won't play in the Qualifying rounds. 
• A main final phase called Euro Promotion - 8 parallel groups  (NWN / NWS / NEN / NES / SWN / SWS / SEN / SEW) of 8 teams - 14 matches
  • Winner promotes to Euro 3rd Division
  • Numbers 2 play a promotion play-off against the closest other group number 2. Winner promotes to Euro 3rd Division
  • The losers of the play-offs above together with the number 3 of their respective groups and the numbers 3 and 4 of groups where the winners of the play-off above were in, will play play-offs against the number 9-10 of the Euro 3rd Division for a place in next years Euro 3rd Division. 

Note: As stated before the clubs filled in the model are a representation of past 2 season. The amount of teams selected for the Euro League p. country depends on the % amount of European clubs with average attendances higher than 9,500 a country is scored for. Which teams are filled depends for Euro Premier and Euro 1st Division on the position in the UEFA Club Ranking. For the 2nd and 3rd Division it is ordered to the ranking of the 2021/2022. 

Euro Cup

Cup paths:

• Euro Champions League - All champions of member nations - 3 knock-out rounds with home and away matches after a free draw - 10 teams of Round 3 go to Euro Cup Final Stage 
• Euro Cup Winners Cup - All cup winners of member nations - 4 knock-out rounds with home and away matches after a free draw - 4 teams of Round 4 go to Euro Cup Final Stage
• Euro Conference Cup - All between 2 and 6 (depending on coefficients) next in-line teams behind the champions of member nations -  7 knock-our rounds of 1 match after a free but regionalized draw - 2 teams of Round 7 go to Euro Cup Final Stage

Euro Cup Final Stage:

• 3 knock-out rounds with home and away matches after free draw with 10 Euro Champions league teams, 4 Euro Cup Winners Cup teams and 2 Euro Conference Cup teams. Rounds are called:
  • Round of 16
  • Quarter Finals
  • Semi Finals
• 1 final played in a neutral venue

Quick Lane Promotion:

The 4 best performing teams in Euro Cup that are not yet represented in Euro League will automatically be placed in the Euro 3rd Division. Teams will go in this order:

• Furthest Round
• If more teams from the same round, those that played Euro Champions League have preference above Euro Cup Winners Cup and Euro Conference Cup. 
• If more teams from the same round and the same Cup (for instance Euro Champions League) than one or more play-offs will be played home and away based on a free draw. 

3. DOMESTIC TOURNAMENTS

Domestic League

• Open to Euro Licensed teams 
• Domestic league pyramid of minimum 1 level to maximum 4 levels based on promotion / relegation with the following amount of teams options:
  • 12 teams p. division - 22 matches p. team (home + away)
  • 8 teams p. division - 14 matches p. team (home + away)
  • 4 teams p. division - 6 matches p. team (home + away) - This option would be interesting for the USA. Due to travel US teams participating in the Euro League would not have lots of time / money for a big domestic league. 
• When a member nation registers a domestic league it should at least have the double amount of Euro licensed teams than the amount of teams playing. 
• Countries are only allowed to a 2nd, 3rd or 4th level if those divisions are the same amount of teams as the top division and the double amount of Euro licensed teams are registered. 
• 2nd, 3rd or 4th levels are allowed to be regionalized. Every division can have either 1 or 2 divisions below. 
• Every parallel division should:
  • Have 2 relegated teams
  • 1 promoted team (except on top level)
  • local member nations can decide if further promotion or relegation spots are allocated direct or via play-offs. 
• The winner of the top Domestic League qualifies for the Euro Champions League
• Depending on coefficients between No. 2 and No. 6 will qualify for Euro Conference Cup. 
• The best 1,2 or 3 teams in the rankings (depending on Member Nations coefficients) that are not yet member of the Euro League will go to the qualifying or main phase of the Euro Promotion. 

Domestic Cup

• Open to Domestic licensed teams and all Euro Licensed teams
• Classic knock-out cup tournament with completely free draw. Clubs operating in Euro league will never play more than 6 rounds. 
• Winner qualifies for the Euro Cup Winners Cup

Domestic League Cup

• Open to all domestic teams that are not playing in either Euro League or Euro Promotion final phase. They all should have a Euro license.  
• Format decided by local member nations (as long as there is a final winner). Stages in league, group and cup format are allowed. 
• Should guarantee a basic amount of match next to the domestic leagues (with a maximum of 22 games p. team)
• Winner qualifies for the Qualifying rounds for the Euro Promotion

 

[Crawford Bridge]

Hiya @Thistle Scotland Europe, hiya pal. 

[WFD]

@Crawford Bridge Unsure what you mean. But in comparison with the current fixture list of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts & Hibs - the fixture list would look like below - XX means home and away, X means one off game

 

 

Curious if that would be an interesting fixture list or an annoying one in comparison with the current. 

 

 

[highlandcowden]

On 07/03/2023 at 18:47, WFD said:

@Crawford Bridge Unsure what you mean. But in comparison with the current fixture list of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts & Hibs - the fixture list would look like below - XX means home and away, X means one off game

 

 

Curious if that would be an interesting fixture list or an annoying one in comparison with the current. 

 

 

The sheer glamour of it all....

[Crawford Bridge]

On 07/03/2023 at 18:47, WFD said:

@Crawford BridgeCurious if that would be an interesting fixture list or an annoying one in comparison with the current. 

 

 

No, it isn't interesting. It would be a load of convoluted shite.

[highlandcowden]

23 minutes ago, Crawford Bridge said:

No, it isn't interesting. It would be a load of convoluted shite.

At least your mob would get some interesting European trips,look at hearts&celtic

[Crawford Bridge]

1 minute ago, highlandcowden said:

At least your mob would get some interesting European trips,look at hearts&celtic

The Hearts fixtures are a throw back to the Texaco Cup. 

[WFD]

@Crawford Bridge @highlandcowden Let me go deeper into the convoluted shite. 

 

In the basis there is only one NEW part which is the Euro League part. Yes the Champions League, Cup Winner's Cup & Conference Cup fusing at the end of the tournament is another, but it's also easily possible to let them play until the final (so please don't call it shite for that, since that can be changed). 

So the convoluted shite part refers to the Euro League . So having second round of matches against Scottish clubs you prefer above 7 European Games (home and away). Note The New Saints being there is the risk of testing the model with most possible surprises. It would normally have been St Mirren (who then also would have had those 7 European Games). 

On the Texaco Cup message, that is clear. So can I assume Scottish team don't like to play English clubs above meeting Scottish teams twice. I can politically understand that. I somehow thought playing Newcastle home and away for Celtic was more interesting than playing Livingston home and away. The problem here is the geographical component which places Scottish teams automatically together with English teams (except for Union Saint Gilloise (Belgium) - very interesting traditional club bytheway) unless they are promoting to the European top. 

If Hibs had the Rangers list of opponents would that be interesting for you? My assumption is that Celtic could easily promote to that division. Anyway Celtic and Rangers could be interchangeable in those divisions (Rangers position is only related to their Europa League success lately). 

From fans of continental teams I did get good feedback, that their fixture lists were more interesting than their current ones. Disappointing indeed that it does not work for Scottish fans. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSvc-mksNzxw5VQbrCXPL3ZUNnUOCARKIi72p0Cgqkk/edit#gid=0 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by WFD

[Crawford Bridge]

TL;DR

[WFD]

Then I am indeed "uitgeluld" like we say in the Netherlands. 

[Crawford Bridge]

[WFD]

I have changed the model a bit on feedback from different countries:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fSvc-mksNzxw5VQbrCXPL3ZUNnUOCARKIi72p0Cgqkk/edit#gid=0

The old European Champions Cup, Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup are restored with all having one winner. Only after that play-offs for EURO FINAL are there.