Pensions and independence

[Gordon EF]

Was talking about this with my dad last night. If we do have indyref 2 any time soon, shouldn't the Yes side basically park their tanks smack bang in the middle of the unionists lawn by committing to increase the state pension in an independent Scotland?

We know Yes will win the vote with under-50s. We know the oldest voters will heavily back No. Yes should be going squarely after the soft No voters in the 50-70 age bracket. If you can get that age group anywhere near approaching 50/50, it's game over.

[101]

We have one of the lowest pensions in Europe so I think it would be a good idea to increase it, I would also hope that the national care service that hopefully will be set up means that older people no longer have to consider the crippling costs of care homes when they are preparing for the end of their life.

I also think people in that age group are risk adverse so sensible well made arguments are key you don't want to over commit and expose frailties in the argument, you also have to get young people to speak to the older people in their families and say this isn't for you the benefits of Indy will take a decade I think to come to fruition but it will be worth it.

[GiGi]

2 minutes ago, Pato said:

BuT hOw WiLl yOu PaY fOr It

What's the answer to this? UBI extending past working age? We have an aging population so seems like pensions will be expensive to maintain.

I agree in general though, our state pension is pitiful and most people under age 45 will be lurching towards pension poverty and therefore less chance of ever actually retiring. State pension should be much better and shouldn't require working to age 70 or 75 or whatever the age may be for the youngsters of today.

[GiGi]

3 minutes ago, Pato said:

The UK pension is funded entirely from government borrowing, despite what all the 60 year old people who lived through both world wars might want to believe, so any enhancement to a Scottish one would also be funded by borrowing. Which means you're buying a pretty marginal slice of old person votes at the expense of services used by younger people who are more pro independence.

This is true but given we'll all be pensioners at some point I'd still rather know what's in store for us other than sacking off no-voting boomers.

[101]

7 minutes ago, GiGi said:

This is true but given we'll all be pensioners at some point I'd still rather know what's in store for us other than sacking off no-voting boomers.

I agree, it's one of the most frustrating things for me not actually knowing when I can cash my workplace pension (tied to state pension age) and how much state pension I will get. 

How can you plan your life with no fixed end in sight.

[ICTJohnboy]

40 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Was talking about this with my dad last night. If we do have indyref 2 any time soon, shouldn't the Yes side basically park their tanks smack bang in the middle of the unionists lawn by committing to increase the state pension in an independent Scotland?

We know Yes will win the vote with under-50s. We know the oldest voters will heavily back No. Yes should be going squarely after the soft No voters in the 50-70 age bracket. If you can get that age group anywhere near approaching 50/50, it's game over.

I know quite a few in their late 60s/early 70s, myself included, and even on here, who have supported Scottish Independence for most of their lives. In fact, come to think about it, I don't know anyone north of the border in that age group who would still support the union.

[Gordon EF]

26 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

I know quite a few in their late 60s/early 70s, myself included, and even on here, who have supported Scottish Independence for most of their lives. In fact, come to think about it, I don't know anyone north of the border in that age group who would still support the union.

Aye, my mum and dad are in their 60s and are solid independence supporters. There are obviously older folk who are solid Yes and younger folk who are solid No but the age break down in polling has been very clear and consistent for years now. If the Yes side can convince those in their 60s to break for independence, that's the game.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, 101 said:

I agree, it's one of the most frustrating things for me not actually knowing when I can cash my workplace pension (tied to state pension age) and how much state pension I will get. 

How can you plan your life with no fixed end in sight.

Your life definitely has a fixed end, probably best not to know when it is but hope it’s sometime after you draw your pension.

[Les Cabbage]

Change the thread name to Pendipendence imo 

[101]

20 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Your life definitely has a fixed end, probably best not to know when it is but hope it’s sometime after you draw your pension.

Okay my working life. I would prefer that to end before my natural life comes to an end.

[SandyCromarty]

Presently we all contribute into our pension via our National Insurance contributions.

There is no pension pot as various uk governments have spent it and to pay pensions now means they have to borrow money.

With this massive historic borrowing to cope with the Covid epidemic paying pensions will be a major issue in the not too distant future.

However by paying for your pension with your NI contributions you are saving with the government by entrusting them with your money, the government then has a legal obligation tp pay your pension, if the Government fails as the German economy did in the early 1920's then we have a serious problem, presently there is concern over uk government borrowing but it is predicted that the economy will cope.

If Scotland gains Independence there will be separation agreement negotations regarding pensions, your pension from the uk government will not stop as they are viewed as 'Accumulated Rights in Law', you paid into a uk government pension scheme 'Accumulated Rights' , and are entitled to it even though you are resident in Scotland.

Consider a Polish national who has worked in the uk and paid NI contributions then retires to Poland, as long as he meets the qualifying conditions he will receive a uk pension.

Obviously once you are resident in an Independent Scotland and are still of working age you will start paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme and still be entitled to a uk pension if you paid into it.

Gordon Liar Brown and the unionists will of course rubbish all this as they did before but it's just petty politics and scaremongering.

[Dawson Park Boy]

12 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Presently we all contribute into our pension via our National Insurance contributions.

There is no pension pot as various uk governments have spent it and to pay pensions now means they have to borrow money.

With this massive historic borrowing to cope with the Covid epidemic paying pensions will be a major issue in the not too distant future.

However by paying for your pension with your NI contributions you are saving with the government by entrusting them with your money, the government then has a legal obligation tp pay your pension, if the Government fails as the German economy did in the early 1920's then we have a serious problem, presently there is concern over uk government borrowing but it is predicted that the economy will cope.

If Scotland gains Independence there will be separation agreement negotations regarding pensions, your pension from the uk government will not stop as they are viewed as 'Accumulated Rights in Law', you paid into a uk government pension scheme 'Accumulated Rights' , and are entitled to it even though you are resident in Scotland.

Consider a Polish national who has worked in the uk and paid NI contributions then retires to Poland, as long as he meets the qualifying conditions he will receive a uk pension.

Obviously once you are resident in an Independent Scotland and are still of working age you will start paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme and still be entitled to a uk pension if you paid into it.

Gordon Liar Brown and the unionists will of course rubbish all this as they did before but it's just petty politics and scaremongering.

Your entitlement will be based on your contributions into the UK scheme. I agree.

Your pension will be paid from Scottish contributions into the Scottish scheme post your retirement. Is that correct?

[Granny Danger]

57 minutes ago, 101 said:

Okay my working life. I would prefer that to end before my natural life comes to an end.

Aye, I got my first state pension payment last month.  Made me feel old.  

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Pato said:

There's an app for that

https://www.death-clock.org/

Really don’t want to know.  It will happen when it happens.

Even an atheist I still smile at the joke “How do you make God laugh?  Tell him your plans”.

 

[DMCs]

2 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

Presently we all contribute into our pension via our National Insurance contributions.

There is no pension pot as various uk governments have spent it and to pay pensions now means they have to borrow money.

With this massive historic borrowing to cope with the Covid epidemic paying pensions will be a major issue in the not too distant future.

However by paying for your pension with your NI contributions you are saving with the government by entrusting them with your money, the government then has a legal obligation tp pay your pension, if the Government fails as the German economy did in the early 1920's then we have a serious problem, presently there is concern over uk government borrowing but it is predicted that the economy will cope.

If Scotland gains Independence there will be separation agreement negotations regarding pensions, your pension from the uk government will not stop as they are viewed as 'Accumulated Rights in Law', you paid into a uk government pension scheme 'Accumulated Rights' , and are entitled to it even though you are resident in Scotland.

Consider a Polish national who has worked in the uk and paid NI contributions then retires to Poland, as long as he meets the qualifying conditions he will receive a uk pension.

Obviously once you are resident in an Independent Scotland and are still of working age you will start paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme and still be entitled to a uk pension if you paid into it.

Gordon Liar Brown and the unionists will of course rubbish all this as they did before but it's just petty politics and scaremongering.

I don't think you understand how pensions are paid. There isn't a pension pot because there never was one. The state pension has always been paid by current taxation and the figure received is only very indirectly related to actual NI contributions. Someone who earns £118 a week for a year and someone who earns £25,000 per week for a year gets exactly the same state pension figure for that year despite the first person paying £0 in NI contributions per annum and the second person paying nearly £30k in NI alone.  There isn't a pot of your pension contributions in a vault somewhere. This is how state pension payments work in developed economies.

"you will start paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme and still be entitled to a uk pension if you paid into it." This isn't true. You will only be entitled to a UK pension if living in an indy Scotland IF you were already getting and drawing down that pension when independence happens. If independence happens then the Scottish government is responsible for pension payments

Edited April 7, 2021 by DMCs

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The last White Paper showed what happens when you make any sort of commitment.

You can absolutely guarantee that the Tories will do some back of an envelope costings that grossly inflates the cost - they'll throw in a few "magic money tree" attacks as well.

I personally would rather we sell the vision of a Scotland that decides our own future than some that tries to please everyone and ends up pleasing no-one  because people don't believe it.

[Dawson Park Boy]

27 minutes ago, DMCs said:

I don't think you understand how pensions are paid. There isn't a pension pot because there never was one. The state pension has always been paid by current taxation and the figure received is only very indirectly related to actual NI contributions. Someone who earns £118 a week for a year and someone who earns £25,000 per week for a year gets exactly the same state pension figure for that year despite the first person paying £0 in NI contributions per annum and the second person paying nearly £30k in NI alone.  There isn't a pot of your pension contributions in a vault somewhere. This is how state pension payments work in developed economies.

"you will start paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme and still be entitled to a uk pension if you paid into it." This isn't true. You will only be entitled to a UK pension if living in an indy Scotland IF you were already getting and drawing down that pension when independence happens. If independence happens then the Scottish government is responsible for pension payments

Thanks for that but can I ask you this as I am no expert?

If, as you say, I am an existing pensioner on Independence Day, is my continuing pension paid by taxation raised by the UK or the SG as you are correct in emphasising that there is no ‘pot’? Seems a bit unfair on UK government as SG will be collecting all the tax on the continuing Scottish workforce but only paying out when they come to retirement which will be at various dates into the future.

Would appreciate if you could clarify this?

 

[SandyCromarty]

2 hours ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Your entitlement will be based on your contributions into the UK scheme. I agree.

Your pension will be paid from Scottish contributions into the Scottish scheme post your retirement. Is that correct?

Post Independence and you are still at working age, say 40, you will be paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme, on retirement you will receive a pension , based on your contributions, from both Scottish and English pension schemes.

The only major change I could see if at separation negotiations England decides that they do not want to arse around with  still  paying Scots pensions they may decide on a lump one off transfer of Scottish contribution funds to the new Scottish Pension Scheme, this obviously would only apply to Scots now resident in Scotland

You'll have noticed that I did not use the uk terminology as that will no longer exist.

Edited April 7, 2021 by SandyCromarty

[DMCs]

4 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Thanks for that but can I ask you this as I am no expert?

If, as you say, I am an existing pensioner on Independence Day, is my continuing pension paid by taxation raised by the UK or the SG as you are correct in emphasising that there is no ‘pot’? Seems a bit unfair on UK government as SG will be collecting all the tax on the continuing Scottish workforce but only paying out when they come to retirement which will be at various dates into the future.

Would appreciate if you could clarify this?

In that situation it's a bit vaguer and would depend on a couple of factors in the post-independence negotiations relating to whether British citizenship is still held by Scots in an indy Scotland and whether they come to an agreement on pensions. 

There are either two scenarios:

1 - Current pensioners keep getting their pension as promised but the Scottish government takes up the liability instead of the British government. Future state pensions of any kind are paid by Scottish government.

2 - Current pensioners get their pension as promised from UK government (similar to how UK gov pays pensions of those retired in Spain) but all future state pensions of any kind are paid by Scottish government.

So in scenario 1 if the post-indy Scottish government cut the state pension then I'd imagine there would not be cuts to current pensions only future pensions so the Scottish government would take the full liability.

Scenario 1 is probably more likely but the issue is that we don't really have a relevant historial example to draw on. Post indepdence movements in Europe were either too long ago or in the Eastern bloc.

[DMCs]

Just now, SandyCromarty said:

Post Independence and you are still at working age, say 40, you will be paying into a Scottish Pension Scheme, on retirement you will receive a pension , based on your contributions, from both Scottish and English pension schemes.

You'll have noticed that I did not use the uk terminology as that will no longer exist.

Completely incorrect.