EoS Structure for 2021/22

[Dev]

Please NO views on side issues like PPG, New Clubs, what the LL does/doesn't do etc. Let's be constructive and not negative for once!

The EoS will see what it makes of the applications from potential new clubs - which will lead to a larger number of clubs in the league, maybe a minimum of 12 new clubs? Then it will do what it has done in the past and come up with options for clubs to consider and to choose from. This won't take long now. 

Clubs will receive options for what to do next season and everything will go from there.

Does the league want to see clubs have the opportunity to progress to the LL? Yes, of course, it does. Why wouldn't it. Should it happen this time around? Yes, why not, as PPG would allow that to happen. Who would even suggest that there aren't a number of clubs in the league which wouldn't hold their own in the current LL.

There is a way forward which would allow an EoS club to get promoted this time around without effecting any other club, whether LL or EoS:

Use PPG to select a Champion club - so Jeanfield Swifts would go up to the LL.

The LL can go up to 18 clubs next season as it's within their rules and regs to do just that if it wishes to, so the LL does not relegate anyone this time. Therefore no relegated clubs from the LL to the EoS.

That leaves the EoS Premier with 17 clubs plus the PPG champions of the Division One Conferences A and B. That's Leith Athletic and Luncarty so 19 clubs in the Premier Division. Even up the numbers to 20 by bringing up the Div.1 Conference runner-up with the best PPG i.e. Haddington Athletic.

That leaves 14 clubs from Div.1 Conf. A  and another 14 from Conf. B so 28 current clubs. It was planned to create a Division One next season made up from the best of the Conference clubs together with clubs relegated from the Premier Division. Do this now. With no clubs coming down just create the new Div.One using PPG to decide the best 8  from both Conferences (excluding the three promoted clubs) to give a Division with 16 clubs. In PPG order this would be:

Conf A:  Kennoway Star Hearts;   Edinburgh South;   Thornton Hibs;   Edinburgh United;   Craigroyston;   Coldstream;   Rosyth;   Dunipace.

Conf B:  Heriot Watt University;   Oakley United;   Kinnoull FC;   Burntisland Shipyard;   Glenrothes;   Newburgh Juniors;   Stirling University;   Easthouses Lily MW.

The remaining clubs would move down to a new Division Two which would include 12 current member clubs plus any new clubs (presently likely to be about 12 minimum(?)) elected for 2021/22. Potentially a minimum of 24 clubs. The clubs could be mixed so that there is a similar geographical spread in two parallel Conference Divisions. Alternately clubs could be placed into North or South Conferences.

Div.Two:

From Div.One Conf. A (6):  Dalkeith Thistle;   St Andrews United;   Arniston Rangers;   Kirkcaldy & Dysart;   Ormiston;   Tweedmouth Rangers.

From Div.One Conf. B (6):  Peebles Rovers;   Preston Athletic;   Lochore Welfare;   Lochgelly Albert;   Hawick Royal Albert United;   Eyemouth United.

Possible New Clubs (min.12):  Armadale Thistle;   Bathgate Thistle;   Bo'ness Junior CFC;   Fauldhouse United;   Letham AFC;   Livingston United;   Pumpherston Juniors;   Sauchie CFC;   Stoneyburn Juniors;   Syngenta;   West Calder United;   Whitburn Juniors.

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

Please NO views on side issues like PPG, New Clubs, what the LL does/doesn't do etc. Let's be constructive and not negative for once!

The EoS will see what it makes of the applications from potential new clubs - which will lead to a larger number of clubs in the league, maybe a minimum of 12 new clubs? Then it will do what it has done in the past and come up with options for clubs to consider and to choose from. This won't take long now. 

Clubs will receive options for what to do next season and everything will go from there.

Does the league want to see clubs have the opportunity to progress to the LL? Yes, of course, it does. Why wouldn't it. Should it happen this time around? Yes, why not, as PPG would allow that to happen. Who would even suggest that there aren't a number of clubs in the league which wouldn't hold their own in the current LL.

There is a way forward which would allow an EoS club to get promoted this time around without effecting any other club, whether LL or EoS:

Use PPG to select a Champion club - so Jeanfield Swifts would go up to the LL.

The LL can go up to 18 clubs next season as it's within their rules and regs to do just that if it wishes to, so the LL does not relegate anyone this time. Therefore no relegated clubs from the LL to the EoS.

That leaves the EoS Premier with 17 clubs plus the PPG champions of the Division One Conferences A and B. That's Leith Athletic and Luncarty so 19 clubs in the Premier Division. Even up the numbers to 20 by bringing up the Div.1 Conference runner-up with the best PPG i.e. Haddington Athletic.

That leaves 14 clubs from Div.1 Conf. A  and another 14 from Conf. B so 28 current clubs. It was planned to create a Division One next season made up from the best of the Conference clubs together with clubs relegated from the Premier Division. Do this now. With no clubs coming down just create the new Div.One using PPG to decide the best 8  from both Conferences (excluding the three promoted clubs) to give a Division with 16 clubs. In PPG order this would be:

Conf A:  Kennoway Star Hearts;   Edinburgh South;   Thornton Hibs;   Edinburgh United;   Craigroyston;   Coldstream;   Rosyth;   Dunipace.

Conf B:  Heriot Watt University;   Oakley United;   Kinnoull FC;   Burntisland Shipyard;   Glenrothes;   Newburgh Juniors;   Stirling University;   Easthouses Lily MW.

The remaining clubs would move down to a new Division Two which would include 12 current member clubs plus any new clubs (presently likely to be about 12 minimum(?)) elected for 2021/22. Potentially a minimum of 24 clubs. The clubs could be mixed so that there is a similar geographical spread in two parallel Conference Divisions. Alternately clubs could be placed into North or South Conferences.

Div.Two:

From Div.One Conf. A (6):  Dalkeith Thistle;   St Andrews United;   Arniston Rangers;   Kirkcaldy & Dysart;   Ormiston;   Tweedmouth Rangers.

From Div.One Conf. B (6):  Peebles Rovers;   Preston Athletic;   Lochore Welfare;   Lochgelly Albert;   Hawick Royal Albert United;   Eyemouth United.

Possible New Clubs (min.12):  Armadale Thistle;   Bathgate Thistle;   Bo'ness Junior CFC;   Fauldhouse United;   Letham AFC;   Livingston United;   Pumpherston Juniors;   Sauchie CFC;   Stoneyburn Juniors;   Syngenta;   West Calder United;   Whitburn Juniors.

"Please, NO views on side issues like PPG..."

Yet the whole post that follows, and the new league structure you propose is calculated on exactly that basis. 

Null and Void means P0 W0 D0 L0 Pts 0. 

12 clubs cannot be relegated to a Division 2 based on a season that basically does not count, as per the agreement.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Che Dail

[Dev]

7 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

"Please, NO views on side issues like PPG..."

Yet the whole post that follows, and the new league structure you propose is calculated on exactly that basis. 

Null and Void means P0 W0 D0 L0 Pts 0. 

12 clubs cannot be relegated to a Division 2 based on a season that basically does not count, as per the agreement.

Fair comments but, as I see it, anyway, the point here is that there is a choice, even now, as has been seen from the decisions of the LL to go PPG.

If we look at the next few seasons then wouldn't it be better to continue with the changes which were previously agreed i.e. create a new Division One and Two in time for next season?

What do you think about that alternative?

[Ray Patterson]

51 minutes ago, Dev said:

Fair comments but, as I see it, anyway, the point here is that there is a choice, even now, as has been seen from the decisions of the LL to go PPG.

If we look at the next few seasons then wouldn't it be better to continue with the changes which were previously agreed i.e. create a new Division One and Two in time for next season?

What do you think about that alternative?

All the new clubs could form a "Development League" at Tier 8 - akin to what the EoS was considering. Don't know how that would work further down the line as you'd have to relegate a lot of clubs at Tier 7 at some point though.

Edited April 5, 2021 by ArabAuslander

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, ArabAuslander said:

All the new clubs could form a "Development League" at Tier 8 - akin to what the EoS was considering. Don't know how that would work further down the line as you'd have to relegate a lot of clubs at Tier 7 at some point though.

EoS Premier Division: 18

EoS First Division Conferences: 16-15

EoS Second Division: ?? (18 applicants publicly now that Tayport have withdrawn).

The Second Division champion could be guaranteed promotion to the First Division.

Not sure if you could guarantee more than that due to the various play-off variations that would change the number of teams needed for the First Divison.

[Ray Patterson]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

EoS Premier Division: 18

EoS First Division Conferences: 16-15

EoS Second Division: ?? (18 applicants publicly now that Tayport have withdrawn).

The Second Division champion could be guaranteed promotion to the First Division.

Not sure if you could guarantee more than that due to the various play-off variations that would change the number of teams needed for the First Divison.

So for 2022-23:

EoS Premier Division: 18
EoS First Division: 16 (Top Seven from each Conf. + Second Division winner)
EoS Second Division Either Conferences or Regionalisised: 12/12/12 - will probably be a few new applicants anyway.
 

[FairWeatherFan]

54 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

So for 2022-23:

EoS Premier Division: 18
EoS First Division: 16 (Top Seven from each Conf. + Second Division winner)
EoS Second Division Either Conferences or Regionalisised: 12/12/12 - will probably be a few new applicants anyway.
 

For 22-23 the Premier would be back down to 16 as well.

[Che Dail]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

Fair comments but, as I see it, anyway, the point here is that there is a choice, even now, as has been seen from the decisions of the LL to go PPG.

If we look at the next few seasons then wouldn't it be better to continue with the changes which were previously agreed i.e. create a new Division One and Two in time for next season?

What do you think about that alternative?

As I understand it, the LL did not have a choice to go PPG - it was required of them.  

The EoS did have a choice, and the league's decision has been made with the agreement of the clubs.

Any prior agreement to create a new Div 1 and Div 2 simply gets deferred to the season after next, i.e. 2022/23, because 2020/21 did not happen - it is null and void.

So next season should be exactly what it would have been if the W Lothian Junior clubs had applied at the start.

In my view, by all means nominate a worthy winner for promotion (i.e. Jeanfield to replace VoL), but the structure should remain exactly the same for 2021/22:

Premier = 18

First = 3 x Conferences.

And for subsequent seasons, you have Premier / First / Second.  This approach doesn't over complicate things and doesn't punish anyone.  Not least the clubs who didn't believe this season should have started in the first place.  

 

[Truthteller]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

As I understand it, the LL did not have a choice to go PPG - it was required of them.  

The EoS did have a choice, and the league's decision has been made with the agreement of the clubs.

Any prior agreement to create a new Div 1 and Div 2 simply gets deferred to the season after next, i.e. 2022/23, because 2020/21 did not happen - it is null and void.

So next season should be exactly what it would have been if the W Lothian Junior clubs had applied at the start.

In my view, by all means nominate a worthy winner for promotion (i.e. Jeanfield to replace VoL), but the structure should remain exactly the same for 2021/22:

Premier = 18

First = 3 x Conferences.

And for subsequent seasons, you have Premier / First / Second.  This approach doesn't over complicate things and doesn't punish anyone.  Not least the clubs who didn't believe this season should have started in the first place.  

 

I’m sure that I heard  clubs had the option not to play at the time and that it not be to their detriment 

[Che Dail]

4 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

I’m sure that I heard  clubs had the option not to play at the time and that it not be to their detriment 

Not quite, they would have been relegated to the tier below.  

[FairWeatherFan]

14 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

In my view, by all means nominate a worthy winner for promotion (i.e. Jeanfield to replace VoL), but the structure should remain exactly the same for 2021/22:

Premier = 18

First = 3 x Conferences.

 

 

By exactly the same you mean changing it, but at least Premier teams aren't impacted except when it comes to relegation so it's fine.

[Dev]

22 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

As I understand it, the LL did not have a choice to go PPG - it was required of them.  

The EoS did have a choice, and the league's decision has been made with the agreement of the clubs.

Any prior agreement to create a new Div 1 and Div 2 simply gets deferred to the season after next, i.e. 2022/23, because 2020/21 did not happen - it is null and void.

So next season should be exactly what it would have been if the W Lothian Junior clubs had applied at the start.

In my view, by all means nominate a worthy winner for promotion (i.e. Jeanfield to replace VoL), but the structure should remain exactly the same for 2021/22:

Premier = 18

First = 3 x Conferences.

And for subsequent seasons, you have Premier / First / Second.  This approach doesn't over complicate things and doesn't punish anyone.  Not least the clubs who didn't believe this season should have started in the first place.  

 

The way you put it sounds like it's ok to change one decision (defer Divs 1 and 2) but not ok to change another decision i.e. to null and void. Is that what you meant?

[FairWeatherFan]

Since it made my head hurt. Anyone one want to attempt to seed the 3 Conferences based on the 2019-20 Standing from across the EoS First Division Confernces, East Region Super, East Region Premier, and Luncarty. Edinburgh South & Eyemouth United would probably be in a grab bag with possible new members like Letham.

EDIT: Figure it's kind of relevant if the season nulls and voids. Since Premier Division teams will know exactly who they're playing against from early April and can plan ahead. While First Division Conference teams are left with uncertainty until the new members are accepted and the league format gets redrawn.

Edited April 5, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[Stoosh83]

Teams who have had years to come in to the EOS should not get one crack at a chance of promotion to the premier.  

Premier, 1st AB, 2nd. 

Both champions up, then a split to make 16 team premier and championship . After that a closer regionlised 2nd division. 2 up from both 2and and 4 down from championship. Straight 3up 3 down between premier and championship.

 

Doesn't need to be complicated.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Stoosh83

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

The way you put it sounds like it's ok to change one decision (defer Divs 1 and 2) but not ok to change another decision i.e. to null and void. Is that what you meant?

You cannot implement the first decision (re structure), because there is currently no fair basis to determine it. 

Therefore, that 'decision' should be deferred until a league season is completed properly.

[sdr71]

Null and void option - Premier (current 18 teams), First (3 conferences, qualifying for First/Second/Third in 2022/23)

PPG option - Premier (17 teams, less current bottom three, promoting Leith and Luncarty), First (15 teams, bottom three from premier, top 6 PPG from each conference), Second (2 conferences, the rest of the current conference members plus new applicants).

[Buzzwoody]

Nil and void season leagues remain exactly how they are but all new teams coming in to play in a division below the two conferences let’s call it conference X

end of the season bottom 4 from premier relegated to new 1st division.

conference winners promoted to premier.

1st division made up of 4 relegated from premier, plus 2-7 placed finishes from both conferences. 

2nd division made up of places 8-12 from both conferences plus top 6 from conference x 

3rd division would be then made up of places 13-16 from conference A and 13-15  placed from conference B as well as bottom say 11 from Conference X. 

Division 3 will maybe high in numbers if more teams wish to join we could play each other once then have a split.

that gives us a proper pyramid for season 2022/2023

Premier 16

first 16
second 16 

third 19ish possibly

moving forward 3 up 3 down from each division, could even 4 keep it fresh and exciting, teams will find there levels within a few years.

Let’s be clear no one expected this, IMO this is as fair a solution to the situation we find ourselves in. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Buzzwoody

[Auld Heid]

There are 2 teams in the premier who have had years to prove they’re worthy of such a lofty position but have finished in the bottom 3 last 2 seasons mustering a total of 4 points between them this season from a possible 66. Do you think they should get another crack at it?

Same could be applied to teams in the LL.

The only outcome that provides an equal outcome is Null and Void.

PPG only works when every team has played every other team home and away. This provides an equal outcome to all.

Unfortunately for me the problem remains we are trying to end seasons early, rather than exhausting all avenues.

[Che Dail]

14 minutes ago, Bigbro19 said:

There are 2 teams in the premier who have had years to prove they’re worthy of such a lofty position but have finished in the bottom 3 last 2 seasons mustering a total of 4 points between them this season from a possible 66. Do you think they should get another crack at it?

Yes because, as agreed, this season will be declared null and void.  It never happened.  Everyone ends up with zero points. Kaput.  

The dictionary definition of the term is:

- having no legal force

- no longer legally accepted

- (of an agreement or contract) having no legal effect and to be considered therefore as if it did not exist

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/null-and-void 

[Dev]

On 05/04/2021 at 18:06, Che Dail said:

You cannot implement the first decision (re structure), because there is currently no fair basis to determine it. 

Therefore, that 'decision' should be deferred until a league season is completed properly.

Sorry. Don't think that would be the best way forward but we'll see what happens.