Election 2021 Debates

[DeeTillEhDeh]

They got huge loans from the ecb because they don't have their own central bank. Borrowing from your own central bank isn't really borrowing at all. Borrowing from one largely underwritten by a larger neighbour leaves you in thrall to a larger neighbour. 
Those loans didn't "cause" Greece's problems. But they were a manifestation of the obvious truth that Greece didn't have at its disposal one of the most crucial economic policy levers, control over its money. 
If Scotland doesn't have an economic crisis then it might not need control over monetary policy as urgently as Greece did. But crises are an inherent feature of capitalism. Something dramatic like going independent could easily trigger one. 
One of the best arguments for independence is that Scotland's (well, northern Britain's really) economy is out of step with the South's and UK's monetary policy is detrimental. I think it was Eddie George who said that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for low inflation in the south. With a joint currency, that potential gain from independence is lost. 
I say again, fiscal autonomy without monetary autonomy is not independence in any meaningful sense. I'd go as far as saying it's lunacy. 

Greece made it's own bed with its spendthrift fiscal policy and was then unable to use monetary policy as a tool to deal with the consequences.

It's dead easy to blame the EU (or rather the German banks) but it was Greece who themselves who spent money they didn't have on military projects and unsustainable public sector pay & pensions.

[Baxter Parp]

They got huge loans from the ecb because they don't have their own central bank. Borrowing from your own central bank isn't really borrowing at all. Borrowing from one largely underwritten by a larger neighbour leaves you in thrall to a larger neighbour. 
Those loans didn't "cause" Greece's problems. But they were a manifestation of the obvious truth that Greece didn't have at its disposal one of the most crucial economic policy levers, control over its money. 
If Scotland doesn't have an economic crisis then it might not need control over monetary policy as urgently as Greece did. But crises are an inherent feature of capitalism. Something dramatic like going independent could easily trigger one. 
One of the best arguments for independence is that Scotland's (well, northern Britain's really) economy is out of step with the South's and UK's monetary policy is detrimental. I think it was Eddie George who said that unemployment in the north was a price worth paying for low inflation in the south. With a joint currency, that potential gain from independence is lost. 
I say again, fiscal autonomy without monetary autonomy is not independence in any meaningful sense. I'd go as far as saying it's lunacy. 

Every nation in the Eurozone has a central bank, including Greece.

"Bank of Greece - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_Greece

They needed the huge loans because they had overly generous social policies and shockingly poor tax gathering, not because they lacked a monetary lever. If you promise your people that they can retire at 55, you need to be able to pay for it somehow. Greece took out loans from the ECB instead of making sure they had a functioning taxation regime. Their financial crisis had absolutely nothing to do with having a shared currency.

[SandyCromarty]

On 05/05/2021 at 22:35, Saltire said:

Sorry Sandy, that is incorrect, we can use the pound without the consent of the BoE or UK government for as long as we want. There is nothing they can do to stop us. The international debt markets, and currency trading, exchange sterling outside the UK every day (Sterling accounts for around 13% of the total of currency trading globally).  My preference is our own currency at the earliest point that makes sense. We have options on currency and that clearly needs to be artictulated in the run up to the referendum and is our decision to make not RUKs. A downside of keeping the pound, or pegging to it, is ceding monetary policy to the BoE and the difficulties that presents for divergent economic needs.

That could only be if we did not choose to join the EU, once we did apply, which seems to be theSNP policy, we have to comply with the CC over a period of time and during that we have to show the country to be a single market economy with the ability to function as a market economy, tied to another non EU country's currency means we could not function as an Independent country and our application would fail.

Would you really want an Independent Scotland tied to the Bank of England, setting our interest rates. over a long period of time?

The argument there would be that we could not manage our own financial affairs and still be tied to Westminsters apron strings.

The Irish had to dissolve parity with the pound sterling in 1979.

Edited May 7, 2021 by SandyCromarty

[SandyCromarty]

On 05/05/2021 at 23:30, Baxter Parp said:

How does sharing a currency negatively affect a functioning market economy?

It does not demonstrate that we would be Independent as a stand alone country, and that as per the CC application process we have to show that we function economically as such.

We cannot do that if the BoE is setting Scotlands interest rates.

Ireland had to dissolve parity with the pound sterling in 1979.

What would the benefits be if we as an Independent country were tied to another country's Central Bank? 

That option defeats the idea of Independence and makes an argument that we cannot survive financially on our own.

It's nonsense.

 

[Dawson Park Boy]

This has been a very interesting debate.

As a right of centre unionist, my obvious solution is for Scotland to stay in the Uk and enjoy the fruits of that union by participating fully in it rather than the grudging, blame culture which we have at present as demonstrated by the SNP.

For Scotland there are only 2 possibilities.

The first, as outlined above or, we go wholly independent with full fiscal and monetary autonomy (well argued by coprolite) without EU or eurozone membership. The example of Greece was spot on. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. Real independence will bring short to medium term austerity but, for true believers, it is the only way. The question as always is sovereignty,and, if it is important, then some pain needs to be endured. 
Simple as that.

[GiGi]

We've lived with austerity that we've voted against for over a decade with no sign of abatement so "you might get austerity with independence" is not a gotcha of a threat.

[NotThePars]

10 hours ago, Bert Raccoon said:

 

Not necessarily disagreeing with your points but the virginton lite act is a poor look 

 

 

10 hours ago, yoda said:

Sometimes posters who do their best to come across as experts in everything need to be on the end of the condescending tone for once

 

But you're right. As a poster I need to be better and to rise above it.

The condescending resumes until the shit posters improve

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

This has been a very interesting debate.

As a right of centre unionist, my obvious solution is for Scotland to stay in the Uk and enjoy the fruits of that union by participating fully in it rather than the grudging, blame culture which we have at present as demonstrated by the SNP.

 

What does that mean? You’re aware that we’re well past the days of exporting Scots to be colonial governors in Penang and Calcutta? It seems to me that those who say Scotland isn’t “participating fully” in the UK basically mean it isn’t voting Tory like England and jolly well should. 

[Mr Heliums]

1 hour ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

As a right of centre unionist, my obvious solution is for Scotland to stay in the Uk and enjoy the fruits of that union by participating fully in it

By turning our backs on Europe? By stigmatising migrants? By charging tuition fees and prescription fees? By renewing Trident? By voting Tory? Is that what you mean?

[yoda]

10 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

In what way is it incorrect?

 

You're ignoring the original question.

Okay. Answering the original question, there's numerous examples of currency crises (which, no matter how hard you try to spin it with semantics, do negatively affect market economies because they're literally economic crises) due to shared or pegged currencies.

Yeah, Greece got in a state because of economic mismanagement. That's true. However it didn't have the necessary tools to deal with the crisis because it didn't have monetary independence. A balance of payments crisis is a pretty good example of a market economy being negatively affected.

Anyway, we're going round in circles and I can't really be bothered. I wouldn't like Scotland to use the Euro or Sterling because I like the idea of an independent currency and central bank.

 

[Dawson Park Boy]

20 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said:

By turning our backs on Europe? By stigmatising migrants? By charging tuition fees and prescription fees? By renewing Trident? By voting Tory? Is that what you mean?

Who’s turning their backs on Europe? That’s nonsense.

Theyre desperate for us to come back for our holidays and we’re desperate to go.

Ive got quite a few booked up.

We’re just no longer in a political and economic union. 

Brexit wasn’t the disaster it was said it would be. A number of problems, yes, but they’ll get fixed. The stock market is doing well, economic forecasts show growth higher than the eurozone, pound is stronger than anticipated, unemployment lower.

Witness the resounding Tory victory in Hartlepool. Ordinary folks now realise that the ‘dreaded tories’ are just as keen on welfareism as Labour but do it better and are socially conservative in outlook.

Migrants - as long as they follow the rules, no problem.

Tutition fees - great for the middle classes. Wonderful. However, lots of overseas students needed to pay for it.

Prescription charges - probably saves admin fees but, again, great for the middle classes. Small beer over all.

Trident - I am for the nuclear deterrent so we’ll  not agree on that one. I think the SNP is pro NATO so seems a tad incongruous to diminish our forces.

[Baxter Parp]

10 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

It does not demonstrate that we would be Independent as a stand alone country, and that as per the CC application process we have to show that we function economically as such.

Again, the accession criteria do not mention "independent" or "stand alone".  The requirement is a "functioning market economy".  The end.

[Baxter Parp]

7 hours ago, yoda said:

Anyway, we're going round in circles and I can't really be bothered. I wouldn't like Scotland to use the Euro or Sterling because I like the idea of an independent currency and central bank.

So do I.

[GordonS]

On 07/05/2021 at 00:26, Baxter Parp said:

If Greece had managed their economy properly they wouldn't have been in the shit in the first place. 

It's obvious that exactly the same can be said about Iceland, but Iceland told their debtors to take a hike and benefitted as their currency fell dramatically. Neither of these options were open to Greece, because they were in a currency union with considerably wealthier countries.

[Baxter Parp]

Just now, GordonS said:

It's obvious that exactly the same can be said about Iceland, but Iceland told their debtors to take a hike and benefitted as their currency fell dramatically. 

Indeed yes, if Iceland had tighter financial regulations, they would not have been in the shit and experienced mass unemployment for years, etc. However, that has f**k all to do with a shared currency, which was not the cause of their financial crisis.