Are YOU Voting for the Alba Party?

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Stinky Bone said:

The supermajority appeared to be ok last week when the SNP were talking about a supermajority with the Greens.

When were they doing this?

[picklish]

Still pretty much all within the error bars, but fair enough.

6 minutes ago, GordonS said:

You can't always change reality just because you really, really, really want to. Wanting it isn't enough. And you need to realise that places like this board are an absolute echo chamber. Support for things like civil disobedience is very low and opposition would be very high.

Besides, what do you do when it doesn't work? The Scottish Parliament votes for UDI and nobody recognises it. Then what? Terrorism? Scream and scream until we make ourselves sick?

I expect a political class to provide solutions, that's their job. If they don't have solutions, I don't expect false promises of jam tomorrow, and the implication that we are a captive voting mass who have nowhere to go. Civil Disobediance can take many forms, it's not inhererntly unsupported, strikes for example can be well supported. To be clear, I don't think a UDI is probably the right answer, pulling the MPs from Westminster might be a positive step, but regardless the strategy of doing nothing gains nothing.

As an aside, I reckon here is one of the least echo-chamber places for general punters comments that I can find online, compared to Reddit Scotland, Wings, Bella, the comments under the Scotsman/Herald/BBC, Facebook. Maybe only Twitter but it's level of discussion is excessively confrontational due to its format.

[Newbornbairn]

[ayrmad]

58 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Big claim. Sounds like whataboutery to me, only without any examples.

The examples might come out if the SNP take the wrong route. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Read some of her feed - eye-bleeding.

[NotThePars]

42 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

It is referenced to in an article in the National on Sunday the 22nd March. 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19176983.snp-considering-coalition-greens-even-party-wins-majority-holyrood/

As far as I can see nobody is named in that article apart from Patrick Harvie and given the substance of it appears to have been lifted from the Sunday Times I'm not sure why anyone should believe it.

It's not to say it won't happen and I think it would be a good idea but it's hardly worth bothering with atm, imo.

[Moomintroll]

45 minutes ago, Smikka Smikka Smoodoo said:

I live in England so have no skin in the game, but how the hell is that going to help the Scottish Independence cause.

[Newbornbairn]

5 minutes ago, Perkin Flump said:

I live in England so have no skin in the game, but how the hell is that going to help the Scottish Independence cause.

It's not. This whole thing is about fucking Sturgeon over and independence be damned. 

[Kejan]

34 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Read some of her feed - eye-bleeding.
 

Why read, when you can listen to her here. Jeez, I lasted about 10 minutes. Her accent is quite odd, but sounds like she's from our neck of the woods - Dundee/Angus South.

 

[Dunning1874]

59 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

It is referenced to in an article in the National on Sunday the 22nd March. 

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19176983.snp-considering-coalition-greens-even-party-wins-majority-holyrood/

Thanks. I don't think one case of an unnamed 'senior source' floating the term once can really be considered an endorsement of it as a campaign strategy though.

[Saltire]

2 hours ago, SweeperDee said:

Surely the toxic members of the SNP defecting to Salmond’s party can only be a good thing in the long run for the SNP? Get rid of the absolute weirdos and palm them off to political obscurity whilst keeping the good c***s?

Whilst I'm not a fan of the Alba Party, at all, there are people who have joined with a lifetime of dedication to the independence cause. I question their judgement, but not their passion.

For the younger posters on here, it wasn't always like this. There were long, long years of the SNP only winning a handful of seats in the northeast and Western lsles. Elsewhere it often trailed in a poor fourth placed and we wondered when the breakthrough would come in most constituencies. Many in the Alba Party, including Salmond got Scotland to this position.

There needs to be a coming together again in the future, let’s not make that harder than it needs to be.

[NotThePars]

7 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

I appreciate that it doesn't name anyone from the SNP in the article, but seeing as the National is very pro SNP, I guess they would've had their sources. 

Fwiw, I also agree it would be a good idea, I would love to see a super majority of pro Indepencence MSPs at Holyrood.

Again, unless I missed it tho the National is taking its quotes from the Sunday Times.

[Granny Danger]

11 minutes ago, Saltire said:

Whilst I'm not a fan of the Alba Party, at all, there are people who have joined with a lifetime of dedication to the independence cause. I question their judgement, but not their passion.

For the younger posters on here, it wasn't always like this. There were long, long years of the SNP only winning a handful of seats in the northeast and Western lsles. Elsewhere it often trailed in a poor fourth placed and we wondered when the breakthrough would come in most constituencies. Many in the Alba Party, including Salmond got Scotland to this position.

There needs to be a coming together again in the future, let’s not make that harder than it needs to be.

No there doesn’t, and hopefully won’t.  A good opportunity to get shot of crackpots, chancers and supporters of sleepy cuddles.

[git-intae-thum]

1 hour ago, GordonS said:

Why does there have to be an end game? The reality is, there isn't one. It's tough shit.

Max Weber said, "Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards."

If the Scottish Government can't get a s.30 Order and can't get a referendum act through the Supreme Court then the independence movement is back where it was before devolution, making the arguments to the people of Scotland, building up support and waiting for better political weather. Anything more radical will just push support away, as has happened in Catalonia. 

....after reading that I truly feel it's all pointless and we should just shut up and eat our cereal. A message from the dementor wing of the independence movement right enough. Let's just drain the hope and happiness right out it.

The depressing thing is though that you are probably accurately reflecting the thoughts of the SNP leadership.

But as Picklish has pointed out...it is up to the political class to come up with the solutions to reflect the will of the people. Otherwise it is a failure of democracy.

That will is independence, and the demographics of the situation suggest that will is only going to strengthen. Doing nothing is not acceptable. The leadership need to find a solution.

[tirso]

3 hours ago, Saltire said:

Whilst I'm not a fan of the Alba Party, at all, there are people who have joined with a lifetime of dedication to the independence cause. I question their judgement, but not their passion.

For the younger posters on here, it wasn't always like this. There were long, long years of the SNP only winning a handful of seats in the northeast and Western lsles. Elsewhere it often trailed in a poor fourth placed and we wondered when the breakthrough would come in most constituencies. Many in the Alba Party, including Salmond got Scotland to this position.

There needs to be a coming together again in the future, let’s not make that harder than it needs to be.

Well said.

[wirez]

I'll be voting for my SNP MSP on the constituency ballot.

My second list vote will go to Alba or the Greens.

Independence first. Sort the rest out after.

[HTG]

12 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

....after reading that I truly feel it's all pointless and we should just shut up and eat our cereal. A message from the dementor wing of the independence movement right enough. Let's just drain the hope and happiness right out it.

The depressing thing is though that you are probably accurately reflecting the thoughts of the SNP leadership.

But as Picklish has pointed out...it is up to the political class to come up with the solutions to reflect the will of the people. Otherwise it is a failure of democracy.

That will is independence, and the demographics of the situation suggest that will is only going to strengthen. Doing nothing is not acceptable. The leadership need to find a solution.

Aye but there are a lot of people who are good at telling us what the SNP isn't doing but without a decent alternative. Let's look at this logically.

1. In 2015 the SNP secured a great result in the GE on the back of 2014.

2. The SNP were clear that they would not seek to demand a second referendum unless polling was significantly in favour (seem as 60%+) unless there was a material change "such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people". This is what happened. 

3. The independence debate re-opened the morning after the EU referendum  

4. A S30 order was refused by the PM in 2016.

5. The SNP had a poor showing in the 2017 GE (by their own standards). Pushing for the referendum vote at that point would have made little sense. 

6. The UK/EU negotiations became completely bogged down through 2017 and 2018. Had an independence vote been pushed for at any time during that fiasco, the charge would be that people were voting to leave the UK without knowing what the UK/EU relationship actually looked like. 

7. By the time of the December 2019 election, still nobody knew what the final deal would look like. 

8. That final deal did not become clear until Christmas Eve of 2020. Since then, we've seen that it's the clusterfuck we thought it would be and we've seen the UK govt prepared to break international law as a result. We've also seen a collapse of exporting to the EU.

9. All of that brings us to the 2021 SP election which is being fought on Indy2 - as it should be. 

So ... what would you and other Indy enthusiasts have done differently to deliver a referendum where there was an outstanding chance of winning it (bearing in mind that "soft" voters are critical to success and would be influenced by the number of uncertainties)?

If this election produces a majority, a S30 is refused and a Court challenge on the right of the Scottish Parliament falls, what do you think politicians should do? Any politicians - what would Salmond or Cherry actually do that would be different? Bear in mind that it has to carry the will of the majority and not just the hard core. 

If all legal options fail, will that be the fault of Nicola Sturgeon? Would anyone else secure a different outcome?

If all legal options fail, what's next? Do we keep trying against a denial of democracy or does Scotland move towards insurrection? Because that's the implication - you either do it legally or you follow the path of others towards a different type of struggle. How much support does that path generate?

I'm all for enthusiasts but they need to back it up with a better plan than those actually doing the negotiating have at their disposal. And for all the rhetoric, I've not seen anything yet. 

[BFTD]

5 minutes ago, HTG said:

Aye but there are a lot of people who are good at telling us what the SNP isn't doing but without a decent alternative.

Yeah, pretty much that. You see it so often, and stated with such conviction, that I get the feeling some folk don't want to state what their alternative is because they know what the reaction will be.

[madwullie]

3 minutes ago, Stinky Bone said:

This could have been an alternative, it has been about for a while and seems better than having no plan. 

What is stopping unionists boycotting this? What any ref needs is legitimacy. Maybe if we were sitting at 65%+ support this would be doable, but hovering around 50? 

[ayrmad]

38 minutes ago, HTG said:

Aye but there are a lot of people who are good at telling us what the SNP isn't doing but without a decent alternative. Let's look at this logically.

1. In 2015 the SNP secured a great result in the GE on the back of 2014.

2. The SNP were clear that they would not seek to demand a second referendum unless polling was significantly in favour (seem as 60%+) unless there was a material change "such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scottish people". This is what happened. 

3. The independence debate re-opened the morning after the EU referendum  

4. A S30 order was refused by the PM in 2016.

5. The SNP had a poor showing in the 2017 GE (by their own standards). Pushing for the referendum vote at that point would have made little sense. 

6. The UK/EU negotiations became completely bogged down through 2017 and 2018. Had an independence vote been pushed for at any time during that fiasco, the charge would be that people were voting to leave the UK without knowing what the UK/EU relationship actually looked like. 

7. By the time of the December 2019 election, still nobody knew what the final deal would look like. 

8. That final deal did not become clear until Christmas Eve of 2020. Since then, we've seen that it's the clusterfuck we thought it would be and we've seen the UK govt prepared to break international law as a result. We've also seen a collapse of exporting to the EU.

9. All of that brings us to the 2021 SP election which is being fought on Indy2 - as it should be. 

So ... what would you and other Indy enthusiasts have done differently to deliver a referendum where there was an outstanding chance of winning it (bearing in mind that "soft" voters are critical to success and would be influenced by the number of uncertainties)?

If this election produces a majority, a S30 is refused and a Court challenge on the right of the Scottish Parliament falls, what do you think politicians should do? Any politicians - what would Salmond or Cherry actually do that would be different? Bear in mind that it has to carry the will of the majority and not just the hard core. 

If all legal options fail, will that be the fault of Nicola Sturgeon? Would anyone else secure a different outcome?

If all legal options fail, what's next? Do we keep trying against a denial of democracy or does Scotland move towards insurrection? Because that's the implication - you either do it legally or you follow the path of others towards a different type of struggle. How much support does that path generate?

I'm all for enthusiasts but they need to back it up with a better plan than those actually doing the negotiating have at their disposal. And for all the rhetoric, I've not seen anything yet. 

4. Was a bigger, ate our cereal. 

8. Totally ignores Covid. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by ayrmad