Israel Vs Scotland 28th March

[Hursty]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

Wasn't watching the thread tonight, but I think I can guess what the general consensus will have been.

I was more hoping than expecting that we'd manage to beat Israel away, but that's yet another game where we've looked roughly on par with them. It's possible that we could somehow have pulled out a winner, but it was no more likely than them doing so. I had a bit of optimism after the recovery against Austria, but this result means we're done already, barring some very unlikely results. Considering this group is as favourable as we're likely to get without clawing our way up through the pots, that's depressing.

Why on Earth have we been so keen to sit off sides when it hasn't worked for us, and pressing them has been so much more effective? Is the worry that we'll tire, so we'll just save that for the second half when we're chasing the game?  

Thats the problem - we have a pretty good squad playing at a good level these days and yet the mentality is the exact same as it always was - be compact and sit in against everybody as they have someone/ something we are scared of.  First I really noticed it was under Burley when the manager / press / players talked up how hard it was going to be in Macedonia due to the heat and we duly lost, and we seem to have followed that shitebag approach ever since.  Its depressing.  Denmark just took 8 off Moldova tonight (5 by HT) but I'd bet we would have sat in for a fairly even first half against them.  

[itzdrk]

46 minutes ago, yoda said:

A point at home to Austria - a team that are probably better than us - isn't shitting the bed. It's a decent result.

A point in Israel is disappointing. But the pant-wetting "It's all over! Clarke out!" stuff is an overreaction. 

Chopping and changing the manager every three years isn't a particularly effective solution. 

 

I think folk get carried away about how good our players are, we have a pretty massive sample size suggesting that Israel are our equals whether we like it or not. 

[Thumper]

5 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

Tell me again about these resources?  A championship reserve keeper.  A succession of mediocre Centre halfs.  A limited but game right back.

We've got 2 great left backs, one of whom seems to be becoming the whipping boy of the morons in the support, some good central midfielders and a lack of outstanding strikers.

Apparently qualifying is below the standard expected of these world beaters though.

Half the squad play in the Premier League and the other half in leagues well above the international average. We are at the tail end of a 40+ year spell of an utter embarrassment of goalkeeping talent. And we've beaten Israel once in six attempts.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Thumper

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

46 minutes ago, edinabear said:

Last time I checked Tierney and Robertson were playing in the Prem. 

If you think our level is drawing with Israel then you may as well give up. 

I bet you're one of those tartan army footsoldiers who applauded the side when we lost 3-0 to Morocco 

I see, you're an idiot. Carry on

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

Just now, Thumper said:

Half the squad play in the Premier League. We are at the tail end of a 40+ year spell of an utter embarrassment of goalkeeping talent. And we've beaten Israel once in six attempts.

Olly Burke and Oli McBurnie play in the Premier League.  Presumably this makes them top class.

The other half of the squad tends to be the problem

[Dunning1874]

Looking at the games where we've used a back three:

Scotland 1-1 Israel - bad result and performance

Czech Republic 1-2 Scotland - good result, bad performance

Scotland 0-0 Israel (won on pens) - bad performance and ordinarily a draw with Israel is a bad result, but let this one slide as we still made it through

Scotland 1-0 Slovakia - good result and performance

Scotland 1-0 Czech Republic - good result and performance

Serbia 1-1 Scotland (won on pens) - good result and performance

Slovakia 1-0 Scotland - bad result but I actually thought this was our best performance with the back three and we created more chances in this game than all the others put together. Undermined by having McBurnie on the park and therefore being unable to turn those chances into goals.

Israel 1-0 Scotland - bad result and performance

Scotland 2-2 Austria - bad result, although the least bad in this category, and bad performance

Israel 1-1 Scotland - bad result and performance, abandoned the back three after 45 minutes at 1-0 down

More bad performances than good ones, more bad results than good ones, only 3 wins (one against a Czech C team) and 8 goals scored in 9 and a half games using it. There are serious question marks over this system that are whitewashed by the fact the run of good results with it included the Serbia game. Obviously that's not a performance which should be downplayed because it was massively important, but I wonder if that's blinding people to the possibility that run of good results was a purple patch rather than norm of what we're capable of in this system.

You could excuse the initial poor results and performances in the context of the players adjusting to the system, but now that we've fallen back into being poor you have to ask if the good performances and three consecutive clean sheets were the aberration rather than going five games without a win.

There'll always be a debate with teams who are weak at centre back of whether it's better to put an extra body there to tighten things up or stick with a back four which allows you to get more of your better players on the park and focus on your strengths rather than sacrificing someone to accommodate an inferior centre back, but we can say pretty conclusively that the extra body approach isn't working currently with no clean sheets or wins in five. You could accept sacririfing attacking intent when we were grinding out clean sheets, now that's stopped you have to ask why we're bothering.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Dunning1874

[Fratelli]

5 minutes ago, Andre Drazen said:

It just strikes me as the same shitebaggery as before tbh. Fear meaning that we give teams more respect than they deserve. I think you could argue that Austria commanded a bit of respect, but Israel absolutely do not.

This is my main issue i think. Typical inferiority complex stuff where we look terrified of the opposition from the get go, regardless of who they are, and play like we're massive underdogs - in that sense it felt like a bit of a Levein performance. What makes it even more infuriating is that unlike the Levein era where we had a nucleus of championship/lower EPL grafter/clogger type players - we do actually have a good few players who can pass and control a ball now. 

He had a stinker tonight but i think McTominay nailed it in his interview on Thursday - we need to be more arrogant and go into these games realising that we do in fact have some very good players, and should be taking the game to teams like Israel and believing that we should beat them. I have no problem with Clarke setting us up to be stuffy against sides clearly better than us, but it felt like we were playing with the shackles on tonight against a side we should really be able to take the game to. 

[Hursty]

6 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Looking at the games where we've used a back three:

Scotland 1-1 Israel - bad result and performance

Czech Republic 1-2 Scotland - good result, bad performance

Scotland 0-0 Israel (won on pens) - bad performance and ordinarily a draw with Israel is a bad result, but let this one slide as we still made it through

Scotland 1-0 Slovakia - good result and performance

Scotland 1-0 Czech Republic - good result and performance

Serbia 1-1 Scotland (won on pens) - good result and performance

Slovakia 1-0 Scotland - bad result but I actually thought this was our best performance with the back three and we created more chances in this game than all the others put together. Undermined by having McBurnie on the park and therefore being unable to turn those chances into goals.

Israel 1-0 Scotland - bad result and performance

Scotland 2-2 Austria - bad result, although the least bad in this category, and bad performance

Israel 1-1 Scotland - bad result and performance, abandoned the back three after 45 minutes at 1-0 down

More bad performances than good ones, more bad results than good ones, only 2 wins and 8 goals scored in 9 and a half games using it. There are serious question marks over this system that are whitewashed by the fact the run of good results with it included the Serbia game. Obviously that's not a performance which should be downplayed because it was massively important, but I wonder if that's blinding people to the possibility that run of good results was a purple patch rather than norm of what we're capable of in this system.

You could excuse the initial poor results and performances in the context of the players adjusting to the system, but now that we've fallen back into being poor you have to ask if the good performances and three consecutive clean sheets were the aberration rather than going five games without a win.

There'll always be a debate with teams who are weak at centre back of whether it's better to put an extra body there to tighten things up or stick with a back four which allows you to get more of your better players on the park and focus on your strengths rather than sacrificing someone to accommodate an inferior centre back, but we can say pretty conclusively that the extra body approach isn't working currently with no clean sheets or wins in five. You could accept sacririfing attacking intent when we were grinding out clean sheets, now that's stopped you have to ask why we're bothering.

A tremendous post - and considering both results against the Czech Republic included them being massively under strength due to Covid it looks even worse.  

[BFTD]

6 minutes ago, Hursty said:

Thats the problem - we have a pretty good squad playing at a good level these days and yet the mentality is the exact same as it always was - be compact and sit in against everybody as they have someone/ something we are scared of.  First I really noticed it was under Burley when the manager / press / players talked up how hard it was going to be in Macedonia due to the heat and we duly lost, and we seem to have followed that shitebag approach ever since.  Its depressing.  Denmark just took 8 off Moldova tonight (5 by HT) but I'd bet we would have sat in for a fairly even first half against them.  

I'm not saying that Israel are poor - although they clearly aren't great - but it was really depressing to see us approach them in the same manner as Austria. The Danes eased past them by comparison, and the result was never in much doubt.

Sadly, I think you're right about Moldova. We very rarely try to take control of a game, and seem to be always working on damage limitation. It's sad. This is a good team; they should have more confidence in themselves.

[The Ghost of B A R P]

On the evidence of tonight overall, we should be going to a 4-3-3 for the foreseeable and into the Euros.

If we’d stuck Adams wide right for the last 15-20, with Dykes through the middle, we’d have won that game.

Clarke going to a 3/5 at the back initially was the right thing to do to stop the rot; and it got us to a Finals.

He now needs to move beyond that, or we’ll go D2, L1... oot.

And before anybody asks: Tierney at LCB, Robertson at LB. That should be fuckin obvious.

[Edited to say: posted before I read Dunning’s post above, which is spot on. 3-5-2 was right at first; it’s not right now.]

Edited March 28, 2021 by The Ghost of B A R P

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

3 minutes ago, Hursty said:

A tremendous post - and considering both results against the Czech Republic included them being massively under strength due to Covid it looks even worse.  

We were more under strength for the Hampden game than they were.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Disappointed we didn’t go for the win after equalising.

2 games in and we’re already looking for Austria to drop points against smaller teams.

Clarke can leave anytime and can take his good Sellick men with him.

[Hursty]

8 minutes ago, Insert Amusing Pseudonym said:

We were more under strength for the Hampden game than they were.

You're right enough - for some reason I had it in my head Soucek had missed both games.  

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

What I do think, and I think said before the games, is that we need to have the ability to play a different formation depending on the opposition.  We looked far more of a threat second half and it was really frustrating to see us start with a 3 when it suits them so well when we match up. 

I would not be that keen on Tierney as a permanent fixture as a left ch in a 4, especially any team with a lot of height but he coped absolutely fine tonight.   It also suited the midfield better and we won far more ball high up after half time.

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

46 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

We weren't playing a half decent team tonight. Teams who qualify for tournaments don't drop points against lower seeds. Israel are a team you need to take six points from six against, as Denmark and Austria will.

You do know Israel beat Austria 4-2 in the last Euro qualifiers? 

 

[Distant Doonhamer]

I thought Clarke made a good change at halftime tonight. I do wonder if he would have made the same change had we gone in at 0-0 at HT.

I suspect  (but obviously can't know ) that he wouldn't have but the change was urgently required nonetheless.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Distant Doonhamer

[DiegoDiego]

limping over the line. one scuffed penalty and Clarke would be updating his LinkedIn profile tonight.

Two scuffed penalties, surely?

[Gordopolis]

So both games seemed to follow this pattern:
-start shitely
-tweak it after 45-60 mins
-look more convincing
-equalise
-take it down a gear


... So was that last step just my interpretation?
Did SC instead think keeping Fraser on the bench Vs Austria (and putting McLean on instead) was more likely to bring victory? Same Vs Israel - Adams and Fraser off for McLean and Dykes?

To this naive mind, it feels like sabotage... but at the same time, losing either game would have been catastrophic. Either way, conceding 4 points in these first 2 games - even if it was a strategic concession - feels very risky.

Frustrated.

[wastecoatwilly]

The last two games Scotland are making the opposition look good,in both games we are allowing these teams time to settle and play,after the Austria game Clarke and McGinn spoke about belief yet we are giving these teams time to breathe.
There is definitely more to come from this squad of players Clarke is still the man to get us there,for me this squad has a result in them to beat Denmark or Austria but also could drop points against Moldova with the passive approach to games.

[Kadouken_]

Are we still pretending that Robertson is better than Tierney?