Jump to content

Tory Lies, Corruption and Hypocrisy- Add Them Here


HTG

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There may be a difference and if there is it's minor. The voting systems lead to Tories getting elected with a small vote share. Local election results had a hell of a lot of people backing Labour and Lib Dems and rejecting this current crop of Tories and I expect that to be the case at a GE.

I understand your second paragraph is what you would like to see happen but you didn't answer why there isn't a successful socialist parry now? I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

I just don't see why there would be some massive change either way? There's nothing that would spur this on to happen unless say the SNP dissolved completely which would never happen. 

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

I think you are being incredibly naive if you think that mid-term local elections and Parliamentary bye-elections are any barometer to future GE's.

And in my experience the Americanisation of English politics has not been replicated in Scotland.  Like Highlandmagyar I am a natural Labour voter who will only ever return to that ticket in an independent country.

I think you need to recognise that large swathes of the English electorate have now lurched so far to the right that well-meaning but ultimately futile wishful thinking won't cut it.  Nor will an uninspiring leader like Keir Starter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

The opinion polls on an independence vote does favour the unionist parties at the moment. But remember that pre 2014 the polls showed an average of 68% No to 32% Yes. It ended 55% 45%. If that swing to happen again, then independence would be voted for. I suspect that the pandemic slowed the surge right down. Now we are moving clear of that, we will get back to the normal. And SNP's biggest ally is this Tory government. There are no left leaning parties in Scotland at the moment because Labour are beholden to London and are pro union. If Labour broke with London, but stayed affiliated then they would probably start eating into the SNP vote. 

 

Of course there are morons in both countries, but as a percentage I would bet that England's share is bigger. Xenophobia in the Brexit campaign clearly showed that. And the rise in extreme right wing organisations in England is alarming.

I meant the vote share for Lib Dem/Labour and Tory combined being over 50%. If that's true then post Indy the likely party would be a centre right, status quo type of party rather than the revolution some are hoping for. 

Labour did quite well up here at the locals, I think they'll continue to do well without needing to radically change their view on Indy.

On the last part I think we can agree to disagree as I pointed out the xenophobia during Indy campaign was worse than xenophobia during Brexit campaign imo. England has some right wing nutters that take up a sizeable chunk of the electorate whereas Scotland also has a sizeable chunk of Britnat Tory type voters with the unfortunate addition of anglophobic Nationalist voters. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Of course there are morons in both countries, but as a percentage I would bet that England's share is bigger. Xenophobia in the Brexit campaign clearly showed that. And the rise in extreme right wing organisations in England is alarming.

This is correct. You only have to look at how the more extreme parties fare in elections north and south of the border. UKIP/Brexist party have consistently pulled a decent vote share (of not actual representation particularly at WM elections). 

The only "extreme" nationalist party here is probably Alba, and even the Scottish electorate don't like them, as evidenced by two absolute thrashings in the last two elections. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I think you are being incredibly naive if you think that mid-term local elections and Parliamentary bye-elections are any barometer to future GE's.

And in my experience the Americanisation of English politics has not been replicated in Scotland.  Like Highlandmagyar I am a natural Labour voter who will only ever return to that ticket in an independent country.

I think you need to recognise that large swathes of the English electorate have now lurched so far to the right that well-meaning but ultimately futile wishful thinking won't cut it.  Nor will an uninspiring leader like Keir Starter.

They're not really a barometer on future GE results but they can show the current state of play. Tory dissatisfaction in the South and Lib Dem gains is where I see the biggest change happening come GE time.

Sarwar has done well imo and I only see this trend continuing. 

Disagree on your last part. Either way it's not like we'll know any of this til a GE or SIndy happens and I might change my position as the situation evolves but I'm not as pessimistic about the likely hood of perpetual Tory rule than some of you are. Nor do I believe the voters of either country are fundamentally different. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

 I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

[Snip]

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

First point, I guess you could say that if you make the assumption that every single Labour (and I guess Lib Dem and Tory and Family Party et al) voter would vote No in an Independence referendum. Given that there has been loads of polls releases suggesting everything from 5% to 20% of Labour voters would either be Yes voters or are undecided, then I don't think you can make that case. 

On the other point, I don't think anyone is suggesting that every Scot is outward looking and that there is no element of racism, anglophobia or xenophobia in Scotland. On the whole though, these incidents tended to be isolated and the likes of UKIP, the BNP and other overtly or otherwise racist parties have never done anything like as well north of the border as they have down South. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

And as for a coalition with LibDems? They are a horrible unprincipled band. Anything for power. Remember what they done with the Tories? 

Like Nick Clegg's promise in the 2010 manifesto that he wouldn't increase student fees. As soon as he was offered a seat at the Cabinet table, that one got ditched. A clear case of putting his own interests ahead of those of the people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

First point, I guess you could say that if you make the assumption that every single Labour (and I guess Lib Dem and Tory and Family Party et al) voter would vote No in an Independence referendum. Given that there has been loads of polls releases suggesting everything from 5% to 20% of Labour voters would either be Yes voters or are undecided, then I don't think you can make that case. 

On the other point, I don't think anyone is suggesting that every Scot is outward looking and that there is no element of racism, anglophobia or xenophobia in Scotland. On the whole though, these incidents tended to be isolated and the likes of UKIP, the BNP and other overtly or otherwise racist parties have never done anything like as well north of the border as they have down South. 

On the first point I'm saying if those groups make up such a large percentage of the vote share now then why would they shift towards left wing socialist parties after Indy?

On the second point there's no need for the loonies to form break of groups when they can hide away within the SNP safely. Let's not pretend the Alba party swept them all up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite an interesting debate about which I’ve given some thought.

As a confirmed Unionist Conservative who would only vote for a party which allowed people to progress in life and be aspirational, I’m starting to warm a bit to Labour. Sarwar seems a decent sort from a business family and some others such as Baillie I find okay.

At the local elections I gave Labour my second vote as I’m basically anything other than SNP who are increasingly incompetent and secretive. If they are an example of what Independence would look like - no thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There's more chance of the UK backing Labour into power than there is Scottish Independence. 

As usual you're forgetting that people are relativley content with the status quo when it comes to the Union. The onus is on you to convince people otherwise but so far your arguments on that front are lacking substance. 

The above isn't really isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Yeah. Labour might win the next election, or maybe the one after that, or the one after that. Even if they do, however, the Tories will be back in power within a couple of elections, maximum. That's the way the UK votes.

Are you "relatively content" with that?

Anyway, if you want to talk odds, currently Labour are 5/4 to have most seats (that's most seats, not a majority) at the next general election. Scotland is 5/6 to vote Yes in the next referendum

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-uk-general-election/most-seats?selectionName=labour

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/next-independence-referendum-result

So, according to the bookies, my preferred result is more likely than your preferred result. Unlucks.

But hey, if you want to keep pretending that your nonsensical arguments have some basis in fact, maybe you should try posting some evidence to back them up. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Quite an interesting debate about which I’ve given some thought.

As a confirmed Unionist Conservative who would only vote for a party which allowed people to progress in life and be aspirational, I’m starting to warm a bit to Labour. Sarwar seems a decent sort from a business family and some others such as Baillie I find okay.

At the local elections I gave Labour my second vote as I’m basically anything other than SNP who are increasingly incompetent and secretive. If they are an example of what Independence would look like - no thanks.

Incompetent? Yet you vote Conservative? A party who believes in people progressing themselves and be aspirational must first create a society where no one is left behind. The Conservative party don't believe in a society. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where you don't get opportunities to better yourself, then your party doesn't care and leaves you behind. Regards being secretive, I don't think anyone can look beyond your beloved Conservatives. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

The above isn't really isn't the gotcha you think it is.

 

I literally only read this part of your post...

Everyone's having a fine rational discussion then you come along and show what am absolute VL loser you are. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I literally only read this part of your post...

Everyone's having a fine rational discussion then you come along and show what am absolute VL loser you are. 

Play the ball, not the man.

If you didn't read the post, how can you honestly react to it?

You said Labour forming a UK government was more likely than Scottish independence. I provided evidence to show that the bookies don't currently think so.

All you bring to the forum is fact-free bluster & abuse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Incompetent? Yet you vote Conservative? A party who believes in people progressing themselves and be aspirational must first create a society where no one is left behind. The Conservative party don't believe in a society. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where you don't get opportunities to better yourself, then your party doesn't care and leaves you behind. Regards being secretive, I don't think anyone can look beyond your beloved Conservatives. 

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Play the ball, not the man.

Stop stalking me please. 

I've told you multiple times I'm not interested. 

95% of posters on here are normal people you can conversate with, you're an extremely boring troll account with zero substance that's done nothing but berate and abuse me since my first post here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

 

60CC2D11-3BE8-4EE4-8CDC-17653DCB08DB.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

One of the most eye bleedingly stupid posts, I've read on here in a while.  I know you're on the wind up, but that's a breathtakingly moronic thing to suggest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

That’s the whole point; if you think the UK *doesn’t* work, then there’s very little Scotland can do to make it so, by really basic weight of numbers. 
 

I wouldn’t vote Labour, no. 
 

ETA - actually I’d vote Labour if I was living in England or Wales at the time of whatever election, but outside of that, no. 
 

 

Edited by carpetmonster
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

That’s the whole point; if you think the UK *doesn’t* work, then there’s very little Scotland can do to make it so, by really basic weight of numbers. 
 

I wouldn’t vote Labour, no. 
 

ETA - actually I’d vote Labour if I was living in England or Wales at the time of whatever election, but outside of that, no. 
 

 

Of course Scotland can't make a difference, it doesn't get a vote. You could say the same for any geographical area of a few million people. A vote in Scotland is worth roughly the same as a vote anywhere else. 

All eggs in the indy basket then. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...