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Tory Lies, Corruption and Hypocrisy- Add Them Here


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Quite an interesting debate about which I’ve given some thought.

As a confirmed Unionist Conservative who would only vote for a party which allowed people to progress in life and be aspirational, I’m starting to warm a bit to Labour. Sarwar seems a decent sort from a business family and some others such as Baillie I find okay.

At the local elections I gave Labour my second vote as I’m basically anything other than SNP who are increasingly incompetent and secretive. If they are an example of what Independence would look like - no thanks.

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1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There's more chance of the UK backing Labour into power than there is Scottish Independence. 

As usual you're forgetting that people are relativley content with the status quo when it comes to the Union. The onus is on you to convince people otherwise but so far your arguments on that front are lacking substance. 

The above isn't really isn't the gotcha you think it is.

Yeah. Labour might win the next election, or maybe the one after that, or the one after that. Even if they do, however, the Tories will be back in power within a couple of elections, maximum. That's the way the UK votes.

Are you "relatively content" with that?

Anyway, if you want to talk odds, currently Labour are 5/4 to have most seats (that's most seats, not a majority) at the next general election. Scotland is 5/6 to vote Yes in the next referendum

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-uk-general-election/most-seats?selectionName=labour

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-politics/next-independence-referendum-result

So, according to the bookies, my preferred result is more likely than your preferred result. Unlucks.

But hey, if you want to keep pretending that your nonsensical arguments have some basis in fact, maybe you should try posting some evidence to back them up. 

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2 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Quite an interesting debate about which I’ve given some thought.

As a confirmed Unionist Conservative who would only vote for a party which allowed people to progress in life and be aspirational, I’m starting to warm a bit to Labour. Sarwar seems a decent sort from a business family and some others such as Baillie I find okay.

At the local elections I gave Labour my second vote as I’m basically anything other than SNP who are increasingly incompetent and secretive. If they are an example of what Independence would look like - no thanks.

Incompetent? Yet you vote Conservative? A party who believes in people progressing themselves and be aspirational must first create a society where no one is left behind. The Conservative party don't believe in a society. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where you don't get opportunities to better yourself, then your party doesn't care and leaves you behind. Regards being secretive, I don't think anyone can look beyond your beloved Conservatives. 

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Just now, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I literally only read this part of your post...

Everyone's having a fine rational discussion then you come along and show what am absolute VL loser you are. 

Play the ball, not the man.

If you didn't read the post, how can you honestly react to it?

You said Labour forming a UK government was more likely than Scottish independence. I provided evidence to show that the bookies don't currently think so.

All you bring to the forum is fact-free bluster & abuse.

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6 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Incompetent? Yet you vote Conservative? A party who believes in people progressing themselves and be aspirational must first create a society where no one is left behind. The Conservative party don't believe in a society. If you are unfortunate enough to be in a position where you don't get opportunities to better yourself, then your party doesn't care and leaves you behind. Regards being secretive, I don't think anyone can look beyond your beloved Conservatives. 

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

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10 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Play the ball, not the man.

Stop stalking me please. 

I've told you multiple times I'm not interested. 

95% of posters on here are normal people you can conversate with, you're an extremely boring troll account with zero substance that's done nothing but berate and abuse me since my first post here. 

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19 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

 

60CC2D11-3BE8-4EE4-8CDC-17653DCB08DB.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

I don’t agree.

The conservatives get away with absolutely nothing. They may try but the press, tv news, their own MP’s, former advisors  (Cummings) are over everything they do whereas in Scotland, the SNP are a closed shop with the media being totally servile. 
Time for you to realise how far freedom is being eroded here.

One of the most eye bleedingly stupid posts, I've read on here in a while.  I know you're on the wind up, but that's a breathtakingly moronic thing to suggest.

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At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

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13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

That’s the whole point; if you think the UK *doesn’t* work, then there’s very little Scotland can do to make it so, by really basic weight of numbers. 
 

I wouldn’t vote Labour, no. 
 

ETA - actually I’d vote Labour if I was living in England or Wales at the time of whatever election, but outside of that, no. 
 

 

Edited by carpetmonster
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10 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

That’s the whole point; if you think the UK *doesn’t* work, then there’s very little Scotland can do to make it so, by really basic weight of numbers. 
 

I wouldn’t vote Labour, no. 
 

ETA - actually I’d vote Labour if I was living in England or Wales at the time of whatever election, but outside of that, no. 
 

 

Of course Scotland can't make a difference, it doesn't get a vote. You could say the same for any geographical area of a few million people. A vote in Scotland is worth roughly the same as a vote anywhere else. 

All eggs in the indy basket then. 

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18 minutes ago, coprolite said:

At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

The entire point is that it is impossible for Scotland to do anything to make the UK work. We could all self-immolate in protest and the only difference is a few folk in Cumbria might notice it got a bit warm. 

Labour don't need Scotland to get in to No.10, and this is evidenced by the absolute focus of Starmer and pals on the red wall and the utterly cunty craven right of centre pro brexit, anti immigration tough on crime and tory lite shite he's been pumping out.  Policy wise (actual policies not just "we'd do the same but better") you couldn't squeeze a fag paper between the current labour party and the populist incoherent "just say what will keep us in power" cynicism of the Johnson regime.

Right now the only difference between the two is really just competence and integrity. Don't get me wrong those things are really important but, I'm not sure I want a government whose policy platform is antithetical to my needs and wants that is competent instead of one whose platform is similarly objectionable that is incompetent, and led by a criminal. 

And I have made this point before but, it is not the job, nor is it in our interest to impose a Labour government it didn't vote for on England and that is of absolutely no benefit to us. 

1 minute ago, coprolite said:

Of course Scotland can't make a difference, it doesn't get a vote. You could say the same for any geographical area of a few million people. A vote in Scotland is worth roughly the same as a vote anywhere else. 

All eggs in the indy basket then. 

But we do have our own particular constitutional settlement that was confirmed by referendum(s) which we now know can be rippled up, set alight and pissed all over by a crude English plurality. 

If Labour had the slightest interest in Scotland the Constitution would be front and centre of their policy offering here. But it's not, because the current arrangement suits them just fine too. 

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1 hour ago, williemillersmoustache said:

 

 the utterly cunty craven right of centre pro brexit, anti immigration tough on crime and tory lite shite he's been pumping out.  Policy wise (actual policies not just "we'd do the same but better") you couldn't squeeze a fag paper between the current labour party and the populist incoherent "just say what will keep us in power" cynicism of the Johnson regime.

 

Agree with that. I think a strong Scottish base in the PLP could rein this in. 

1 hour ago, williemillersmoustache said:

 

And I have made this point before but, it is not the job, nor is it in our interest to impose a Labour government it didn't vote for on England and that is of absolutely no benefit to us. 

 

Disagree with this. Without Scotland,  rUK shifts ever so slightly to the right. With first past the post and the votes for the big parties fairly evenly split that might mean a minority Tory government even more often. And rUK isn't just England. 

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2 hours ago, coprolite said:

At the moment, the UK is stuck with a Tory Government and Scotland is stuck with the UK.

At what point do Indy supporters admit defeat and start trying to make the UK work? 
 

Would losing indyref 2 do it?

How many of you would vote labour if they committed to a referendum? 

 

Indyref 2023 WILL lose.  There has been no campaigning.  

As the NI protocol is proving and the "vow" to Scotland, the English parliament cannot be trusted to look after the interests of Scotland. 

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8 minutes ago, Kenneth840 said:

Indyref 2023 WILL lose.  There has been no campaigning.  

As the NI protocol is proving and the "vow" to Scotland, the English parliament cannot be trusted to look after the interests of Scotland. 

What English parliament? 

If you mean the UK parliament, well no, but they can't be trusted to look after the interests of their own constituents either. 

Scotland doesn't have interests. Scottish people have interests. And the interests of the wealthy and corrupt scottish people will be getting looked after very well. As much as the interests of unemployed single mothers in Surrey will be neglected. 

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10 minutes ago, coprolite said:

What English parliament? 

If you mean the UK parliament, well no, but they can't be trusted to look after the interests of their own constituents either. 

Scotland doesn't have interests. Scottish people have interests. And the interests of the wealthy and corrupt scottish people will be getting looked after very well. As much as the interests of unemployed single mothers in Surrey will be neglected. 

The English Parliament still exists, in that it sits in England and has governed England using laws and practises which predate any notion of a “UK”. Constitutional historians pretty much agree that the English Parliament was simply expanded to govern territories outside England (some of which it later lost). You’ll probably recall discussion about Henry VIII powers a few years ago - this despite Henry VIII being a corpse for centuries by the time the UK came into being. The Parliament’s own website points out that it has existed since Anglo-Saxon times and contains a page explaining “How the scope of Parliament's authority gradually widened”.

There is no “English government”, though.

Edited by Antlion
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TO ALL INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS  

When are you going to realise that having a tory government has not been the best thing for Scotland these past 10 years.  It is a myth.  It is not improving our chances for Independence, in fact it is changing laws to make it more difficult to achieve our Independence. 

The average of Independence polls since 2014 is 47%.  It has increased a massive 2% in 7 years. 

The Snp are shifting right wing, if anyone looks at what Scot Gov has done with regards to Scotwind and the carbon credits for landowners, they will see that they are no longer anywhere near left wing. 

https://commonweal.scot/new-black-gold/

Quote

As revealed by the NYT article, the current policy on peat restoration is to encourage the private owners of Scotland’s vast estates to restore damaged peatland and to reimburse them of 80% of the costs of doing so. Aside from Scotland’s notoriously unequal pattern of land ownership, the scandal – the latest in a series of scandals involving Scottish land – lies is in what happens next. The owner can use the fact that they have restored this peatland to sell carbon credits either on the basis of new carbon that will get locked into the ground or by simply claiming that the moors will no longer emit their stored carbon. These credits are bought by polluting companies which allows them to “offset” their own emissions and claim that they are “carbon neutral”. The land owner gets to keep 100% of the profits of the credit sale, despite paying only 20% of the costs towards the restoration. The article describes this as the Scottish Government saying “Bill us for the digging, and keep all the gold you can mine.”

https://robinmcalpine.org/why-is-the-scottish-government-surging-to-the-right/

Quote

That’s where the Sturgeon administration comes in. The direction of travel was set clearly by the time she appointed the founder of the most secretive lobbying company in Scotland to write the prospectus for independence. The media met this with a shrug at the time, but many of the inappropriate appointments of the Johnson era are fairly neutral by comparison.

Sturgeon was sending out the message that the corporate establishment was in control of Scotland, the ‘unruly children’ of the 2014 independence movement had all been sent to the naughty step and Scotland was a safe playground for the rich and powerful, now and in the future.

Why? Why did this incredible lurch to the right happen? The answer lies in the fundamental nature of ‘Sturgeonism’; it’s not a political philosophy, it’s a PR strategy. Throughout her career in politics Sturgeon has picked up political issues when they were fashionable and dropped them again like hot stones when the weather changed.

From her opposition to the War in Iraq to her feminist credentials, these positions come and go as if out of and back into nowhere according to whether they will boost the commentator class’s perceptions of her.

For the ruling class consensus described above to take hold, all it needed was a leader whose ego could be massaged into permitting it, and in Sturgeon they found that leader. It is a unique position – there would be a bitter internal rebellion against what has been happening had the issue of independence not been held as a hostage. “Privatise the ferries or the independence thing bites the dust” has been a brutally effective strategy.

This ruling class power-grab would not be possible under any other conceivable leader, and even if whomever succeeds Sturgeon tried they would not have the personal authority (or husband running the party’s bureaucracy) which would enable them to suppress internal dissent.

To my eyes it seems that the establishment knows it and so their scorched earth policy is accelerating as they (like everyone else) can sense the Sturgeon era grinding to its conclusion. They know that there will be no undoing ScotWind, or Freeports, or Judy Murry’s luxury housing development, or Northlink Ferries, or that god-awful shite emoji hotel in Edinburgh, or any of the rest of it.

When I write that Scotland is being ‘asset stripped’, this is what I mean. It is not just that decisions are being made which have no real democratic legitimacy, it’s that decisions are being targetted where there is and can be no democratic redress. Once this stuff is done, it’s done (privatising the ferries will prove easy enough, renationalising them a much stiffer challenge).

 

 

 

 

 

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TO ALL INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS  
When are you going to realise that having a tory government has not been the best thing for Scotland these past 10 years.  It is a myth.  It is not improving our chances for Independence, in fact it is changing laws to make it more difficult to achieve our Independence. 
The average of Independence polls since 2014 is 47%.  It has increased a massive 2% in 7 years. 
The Snp are shifting right wing, if anyone looks at what Scot Gov has done with regards to Scotwind and the carbon credits for landowners, they will see that they are no longer anywhere near left wing. 
https://commonweal.scot/new-black-gold/
As revealed by the NYT article, the current policy on peat restoration is to encourage the private owners of Scotland’s vast estates to restore damaged peatland and to reimburse them of 80% of the costs of doing so. Aside from Scotland’s notoriously unequal pattern of land ownership, the scandal – the latest in a series of scandals involving Scottish land – lies is in what happens next. The owner can use the fact that they have restored this peatland to sell carbon credits either on the basis of new carbon that will get locked into the ground or by simply claiming that the moors will no longer emit their stored carbon. These credits are bought by polluting companies which allows them to “offset” their own emissions and claim that they are “carbon neutral”. The land owner gets to keep 100% of the profits of the credit sale, despite paying only 20% of the costs towards the restoration. The article describes this as the Scottish Government saying “Bill us for the digging, and keep all the gold you can mine.”
https://robinmcalpine.org/why-is-the-scottish-government-surging-to-the-right/

That’s where the Sturgeon administration comes in. The direction of travel was set clearly by the time she appointed the founder of the most secretive lobbying company in Scotland to write the prospectus for independence. The media met this with a shrug at the time, but many of the inappropriate appointments of the Johnson era are fairly neutral by comparison.

Sturgeon was sending out the message that the corporate establishment was in control of Scotland, the ‘unruly children’ of the 2014 independence movement had all been sent to the naughty step and Scotland was a safe playground for the rich and powerful, now and in the future.

Why? Why did this incredible lurch to the right happen? The answer lies in the fundamental nature of ‘Sturgeonism’; it’s not a political philosophy, it’s a PR strategy. Throughout her career in politics Sturgeon has picked up political issues when they were fashionable and dropped them again like hot stones when the weather changed.

From her opposition to the War in Iraq to her feminist credentials, these positions come and go as if out of and back into nowhere according to whether they will boost the commentator class’s perceptions of her.

For the ruling class consensus described above to take hold, all it needed was a leader whose ego could be massaged into permitting it, and in Sturgeon they found that leader. It is a unique position – there would be a bitter internal rebellion against what has been happening had the issue of independence not been held as a hostage. “Privatise the ferries or the independence thing bites the dust” has been a brutally effective strategy.

This ruling class power-grab would not be possible under any other conceivable leader, and even if whomever succeeds Sturgeon tried they would not have the personal authority (or husband running the party’s bureaucracy) which would enable them to suppress internal dissent.

To my eyes it seems that the establishment knows it and so their scorched earth policy is accelerating as they (like everyone else) can sense the Sturgeon era grinding to its conclusion. They know that there will be no undoing ScotWind, or Freeports, or Judy Murry’s luxury housing development, or Northlink Ferries, or that god-awful shite emoji hotel in Edinburgh, or any of the rest of it.

When I write that Scotland is being ‘asset stripped’, this is what I mean. It is not just that decisions are being made which have no real democratic legitimacy, it’s that decisions are being targetted where there is and can be no democratic redress. Once this stuff is done, it’s done (privatising the ferries will prove easy enough, renationalising them a much stiffer challenge).

 
 
 
 
 
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
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45 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Agree with that. I think a strong Scottish base in the PLP could rein this in. 

Disagree with this. Without Scotland,  rUK shifts ever so slightly to the right. With first past the post and the votes for the big parties fairly evenly split that might mean a minority Tory government even more often. And rUK isn't just England. 

It's a nice idea, that electing Scottish Labour MPs would drag the party to the left, but to get them there they will have to stand be elected and therefore endorse the current right of centre platform.  

And then we can look at who might lead the party post Starmer or be in his cabinet.  Nandy, Streeting,  Cooper and Burnham, who all could easily be mistaken for 1 nation Tories. Infinitely more credible than Corbyns gang of Burgon, Gardiner and Piddock etc, I grant you but the same issues that plague UK politics as whole, plague Labour. Scotland just doesn't matter. And, a generous, possibility of 10 new SLab grifters just marking time until ermine day, is not going to change that. 

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