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Tory Lies, Corruption and Hypocrisy- Add Them Here


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12 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yet this is still your preferred system of governance? Hope that Labour can reverse decades of Tory corruption by winning an election every 20 years or so?

Good luck with convincing anyone with that approach.

There's more chance of the UK backing Labour into power than there is Scottish Independence. 

As usual you're forgetting that people are relativley content with the status quo when it comes to the Union. The onus is on you to convince people otherwise but so far your arguments on that front are lacking substance. 

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Ye. Bewildering why most folks in Scotland content with this, but there you go. Personally would prefer to wait another couple of general elections, before another referendum. Looks like a minimal shift to Yes in 8 years, same again would maybe give a majority. Who knows. 

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6 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

Decent piece from Jonathan Freedland - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/20/boris-johnson-lying-pm-britain-tories

 

If anyone's short on time and needs a TLDR, it is thus: they're all c***s. 

The dodgy online translation of a foreign news article about Andrew Rosindell is more right than it knows. Or, at least, I assume this is a dodgy online mistranslation.

Tory MP  members of Boris Johnson’s party are arrested for the acquisition of many serious charges at once of sexual assault, assault, rape, misconduct, and abuse of the position of trust.

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10 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There's more chance of the UK backing Labour into power than there is Scottish Independence. 

As usual you're forgetting that people are relativley content with the status quo when it comes to the Union. The onus is on you to convince people otherwise but so far your arguments on that front are lacking substance. 

No chance. Labour aren't right wing enough to win in England. And in Scotland they are a loss of a vote. The best they can hope for is being the largest party and a coalition with LibDems. Which is just more of the same under the Tories.

Edited by Highlandmagyar Tier 3
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8 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

No chance. Labour aren't right wing enough to win in England. And in Scotland they are a loss of a vote. The best they can hope for is being the largest party and a coalition with LibDems. Which is just more of the same under the Tories.

I didn't say it was inevitable I said there was more chance of Labour being in government next GE than Scotland voting for Independence which is true. 

I'm confident they'll win a few seats in Scotland and it'll probably be a lib dem prop up but that's not what I'd call "Tory". Much better than the actual tories or tartan tories running Scotland imo. 

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13 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I didn't say it was inevitable I said there was more chance of Labour being in government next GE than Scotland voting for Independence which is true. 

I'm confident they'll win a few seats in Scotland and it'll probably be a lib dem prop up but that's not what I'd call "Tory". Much better than the actual tories or tartan tories running Scotland imo. 

Really? Tartan Tories? I voted Labour since 1979 until the last General Election.  The SNP could be labelled as Tartan Tories years back, but not now. I am no SNP fan by any means but I am voting for them to push the independence agenda. Since 2010 the English have shown they are natural Tories and Brexit opened Pandora's box of the racist element in them. Look at opinion polls. The most corrupt government in my lifetime and yet Labour would still not win a majority. The English voter love the Tories. The only way now to get rid of the Tories in Scotland is by independence. As soon as we get it, I will be looking at left wing parties to vote for, not the SNP.

 

And as for a coalition with LibDems? They are a horrible unprincipled band. Anything for power. Remember what they done with the Tories? 

 

And where is the truth of a Labour government before a successful independence vote?

Edited by Highlandmagyar Tier 3
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Just now, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Really? Tartan Tories? I voted Labour since 1979 until the last General Election.  The SNP could be labelled as Tartan Tories years back, but not now. I am no SNP fan by any means but I am voting for them to push the independence agenda. Since 2010 the English gave shown they are natural Tories and Brexit opened Pandora's box of the racist element in them. Look at opinion polls. The most corrupt government in my lifetime and yet Labour would still not win a majority. The English voter love the Tories. The only way now to get rid of the Tories in Scotland is by independence. As soon as we get it, I will be looking at left wing parties to vote for, not the SNP.

No it's not. The idea that it's impossible for them to win the next GE isn't something I agree with. 

I've seen other people say after Indy that Scotland would elect some progressive left wing party instead of the SNP but I'm rather skeptical on this idea. Could you please tell me why considering the majority of the electorate vote for centre right parties now they would suddenly decide to vote for something else post Indy vote? 

If there was the appetite for such politics in Scotland then there would be a party now with such values that had success. In my view most of the Indy nutters (a lot of the posters on here) like to believe Scottish voters are better than voters from England and the rest of the UK and that they're much more progressive which isn't true, it's a coping mechanism to justify their Nationalism usually. 

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3 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

No it's not. The idea that it's impossible for them to win the next GE isn't something I agree with. 

I've seen other people say after Indy that Scotland would elect some progressive left wing party instead of the SNP but I'm rather skeptical on this idea. Could you please tell me why considering the majority of the electorate vote for centre right parties now they would suddenly decide to vote for something else post Indy vote? 

If there was the appetite for such politics in Scotland then there would be a party now with such values that had success. In my view most of the Indy nutters (a lot of the posters on here) like to believe Scottish voters are better than voters from England and the rest of the UK and that they're much more progressive which isn't true, it's a coping mechanism to justify their Nationalism usually. 

I think you have blinkers of unionism on. Scottish voters are more progressive than English ones nowadays. They are rejecting far right politics. The only vehicle open for independence is the SNP. The Labour, who are a mess, I genuinely believe there will be a break up of the SNP with splinter groups of left, right and centre forming other parties. Hopefully a socialist party emerges to carry Scottish voters real concern of a society( which Tories don't believe in) to power. I suspect that the SNP would hold together for a first independent election. After that I believe there will be a big sea change in Scottish politics. I think Brexit proves right away that, on the whole, show Scottish voters to be a bit wiser in politics than the English. Xenophobia, racism and the little Englander truism poured out at the referendum. 

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I just don't see how the numbers are going to stack up for Labour in order to win power in a GE any time soon. English voters in particular are still largely favouring the corrupt, mendacious Tory Government in living memory, led by a PM who quite openly doesn't give a shite about the public, or indeed doing his job. Not only that he leads a cabinet made up of politicians who would have been at home in the BNP 15 years ago, topped off by a billionaire Chancellor with shady Tax status issues. Throw in a few rapey and racist MPs and you have a party mired in greater levels of sleaze than saw them emptied by Tony Blair's New Labour in 1997 in emphatic fashion. 

A snap election now would at best see the Tories with most MP's, possibly depending on a need to bribe the Dinosaur Deniers again. Any decent, well-organised major opposition party should be absolutely demolishing the Tories in the polls just now, and whilst Starmer is doing a bit better lately in terms of polling, when push comes to shove, the electorate will edge the Tories in again when it shouldn't even be close enough for that to happen. In any case, if the Tories look to be any danger at all prior to the next election, they'll bump BoJo for a visually safe pair of hands and win fairly easily. 

Aside from Labour's obvious problem with internal politics and trying too hard to appeal to folk who'll never vote for them, they have completely lost Scotland, where they could generally have relied on 30+ seats in the old days. They are an unelectable rabble up here with zero political talent coming through the ranks. I don't see how they get out of this hole in the next decade at least. 

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1 minute ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

I think you have blinkers of unionism on. Scottish voters are more progressive than English ones nowadays. They are rejecting far right politics. The only vehicle open for independence is the SNP. The Labour, who are a mess, I genuinely believe there will be a break up of the SNP with splinter groups of left, right and centre forming other parties. Hopefully a socialist party emerges to carry Scottish voters real concern of a society( which Tories don't believe in) to power. I suspect that the SNP would hold together for a first independent election. After that I believe there will be a big sea change in Scottish politics. I think Brexit proves right away that, on the whole, show Scottish voters to be a bit wiser in politics than the English. Xenophobia, racism and the little Englander truism poured out at the referendum. 

There may be a difference and if there is it's minor. The voting systems lead to Tories getting elected with a small vote share. Local election results had a hell of a lot of people backing Labour and Lib Dems and rejecting this current crop of Tories and I expect that to be the case at a GE.

I understand your second paragraph is what you would like to see happen but you didn't answer why there isn't a successful socialist parry now? I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

I just don't see why there would be some massive change either way? There's nothing that would spur this on to happen unless say the SNP dissolved completely which would never happen. 

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

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13 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There may be a difference and if there is it's minor. The voting systems lead to Tories getting elected with a small vote share. Local election results had a hell of a lot of people backing Labour and Lib Dems and rejecting this current crop of Tories and I expect that to be the case at a GE.

I understand your second paragraph is what you would like to see happen but you didn't answer why there isn't a successful socialist parry now? I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

I just don't see why there would be some massive change either way? There's nothing that would spur this on to happen unless say the SNP dissolved completely which would never happen. 

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

The opinion polls on an independence vote does favour the unionist parties at the moment. But remember that pre 2014 the polls showed an average of 68% No to 32% Yes. It ended 55% 45%. If that swing to happen again, then independence would be voted for. I suspect that the pandemic slowed the surge right down. Now we are moving clear of that, we will get back to the normal. And SNP's biggest ally is this Tory government. There are no left leaning parties in Scotland at the moment because Labour are beholden to London and are pro union. If Labour broke with London, but stayed affiliated then they would probably start eating into the SNP vote. 

 

Of course there are morons in both countries, but as a percentage I would bet that England's share is bigger. Xenophobia in the Brexit campaign clearly showed that. And the rise in extreme right wing organisations in England is alarming.

Edited by Highlandmagyar Tier 3
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12 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

There may be a difference and if there is it's minor. The voting systems lead to Tories getting elected with a small vote share. Local election results had a hell of a lot of people backing Labour and Lib Dems and rejecting this current crop of Tories and I expect that to be the case at a GE.

I understand your second paragraph is what you would like to see happen but you didn't answer why there isn't a successful socialist parry now? I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

I just don't see why there would be some massive change either way? There's nothing that would spur this on to happen unless say the SNP dissolved completely which would never happen. 

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

I think you are being incredibly naive if you think that mid-term local elections and Parliamentary bye-elections are any barometer to future GE's.

And in my experience the Americanisation of English politics has not been replicated in Scotland.  Like Highlandmagyar I am a natural Labour voter who will only ever return to that ticket in an independent country.

I think you need to recognise that large swathes of the English electorate have now lurched so far to the right that well-meaning but ultimately futile wishful thinking won't cut it.  Nor will an uninspiring leader like Keir Starter.

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5 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

The opinion polls on an independence vote does favour the unionist parties at the moment. But remember that pre 2014 the polls showed an average of 68% No to 32% Yes. It ended 55% 45%. If that swing to happen again, then independence would be voted for. I suspect that the pandemic slowed the surge right down. Now we are moving clear of that, we will get back to the normal. And SNP's biggest ally is this Tory government. There are no left leaning parties in Scotland at the moment because Labour are beholden to London and are pro union. If Labour broke with London, but stayed affiliated then they would probably start eating into the SNP vote. 

 

Of course there are morons in both countries, but as a percentage I would bet that England's share is bigger. Xenophobia in the Brexit campaign clearly showed that. And the rise in extreme right wing organisations in England is alarming.

I meant the vote share for Lib Dem/Labour and Tory combined being over 50%. If that's true then post Indy the likely party would be a centre right, status quo type of party rather than the revolution some are hoping for. 

Labour did quite well up here at the locals, I think they'll continue to do well without needing to radically change their view on Indy.

On the last part I think we can agree to disagree as I pointed out the xenophobia during Indy campaign was worse than xenophobia during Brexit campaign imo. England has some right wing nutters that take up a sizeable chunk of the electorate whereas Scotland also has a sizeable chunk of Britnat Tory type voters with the unfortunate addition of anglophobic Nationalist voters. 

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6 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

Of course there are morons in both countries, but as a percentage I would bet that England's share is bigger. Xenophobia in the Brexit campaign clearly showed that. And the rise in extreme right wing organisations in England is alarming.

This is correct. You only have to look at how the more extreme parties fare in elections north and south of the border. UKIP/Brexist party have consistently pulled a decent vote share (of not actual representation particularly at WM elections). 

The only "extreme" nationalist party here is probably Alba, and even the Scottish electorate don't like them, as evidenced by two absolute thrashings in the last two elections. 

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2 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

I think you are being incredibly naive if you think that mid-term local elections and Parliamentary bye-elections are any barometer to future GE's.

And in my experience the Americanisation of English politics has not been replicated in Scotland.  Like Highlandmagyar I am a natural Labour voter who will only ever return to that ticket in an independent country.

I think you need to recognise that large swathes of the English electorate have now lurched so far to the right that well-meaning but ultimately futile wishful thinking won't cut it.  Nor will an uninspiring leader like Keir Starter.

They're not really a barometer on future GE results but they can show the current state of play. Tory dissatisfaction in the South and Lib Dem gains is where I see the biggest change happening come GE time.

Sarwar has done well imo and I only see this trend continuing. 

Disagree on your last part. Either way it's not like we'll know any of this til a GE or SIndy happens and I might change my position as the situation evolves but I'm not as pessimistic about the likely hood of perpetual Tory rule than some of you are. Nor do I believe the voters of either country are fundamentally different. 

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1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

 I'd imagine Scotland would reject it, is the vote share for Unionist parties not slightly higher in Scotland at the moment? (Could be wrong on that) 

[Snip]

Strongly disagree on your last part. The Brexit thing is pure political posturing. Unfair to say Scottish voters are wiser than English and use xenophobia and "little englanders" when we have Nationalists in power in Scotland that dogwhistle for Anglophobia all the time. The xenophobia that was about during the Indy Ref was frightening.

Both countries clearly have issues with a minority group of morons... 

First point, I guess you could say that if you make the assumption that every single Labour (and I guess Lib Dem and Tory and Family Party et al) voter would vote No in an Independence referendum. Given that there has been loads of polls releases suggesting everything from 5% to 20% of Labour voters would either be Yes voters or are undecided, then I don't think you can make that case. 

On the other point, I don't think anyone is suggesting that every Scot is outward looking and that there is no element of racism, anglophobia or xenophobia in Scotland. On the whole though, these incidents tended to be isolated and the likes of UKIP, the BNP and other overtly or otherwise racist parties have never done anything like as well north of the border as they have down South. 

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1 hour ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

And as for a coalition with LibDems? They are a horrible unprincipled band. Anything for power. Remember what they done with the Tories? 

Like Nick Clegg's promise in the 2010 manifesto that he wouldn't increase student fees. As soon as he was offered a seat at the Cabinet table, that one got ditched. A clear case of putting his own interests ahead of those of the people.

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10 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

First point, I guess you could say that if you make the assumption that every single Labour (and I guess Lib Dem and Tory and Family Party et al) voter would vote No in an Independence referendum. Given that there has been loads of polls releases suggesting everything from 5% to 20% of Labour voters would either be Yes voters or are undecided, then I don't think you can make that case. 

On the other point, I don't think anyone is suggesting that every Scot is outward looking and that there is no element of racism, anglophobia or xenophobia in Scotland. On the whole though, these incidents tended to be isolated and the likes of UKIP, the BNP and other overtly or otherwise racist parties have never done anything like as well north of the border as they have down South. 

On the first point I'm saying if those groups make up such a large percentage of the vote share now then why would they shift towards left wing socialist parties after Indy?

On the second point there's no need for the loonies to form break of groups when they can hide away within the SNP safely. Let's not pretend the Alba party swept them all up. 

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