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Celtic and Rangers B Teams in League Two?


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Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^nothing in this contradicts anything I have written.

An amateur sports club isn't a B team, mate.

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You miss the main reason for this, which is that in many countries: Netherlands, Germany, Iceland etc, organised football developed differently to here. The majority of football clubs started as departments of multi-sports members' clubs and still run as such.
You mention SC Feyenoord, which, as far as I know, is the multi-sport club that happens to have a football department. The professional side grew out of this but split off from the structures of the multi-sport club. [mention=74604]Marten[/mention] will know more about this than me.
There's a book about the development of German football called Tor! that is a good read about how the system started.
That's correct. It was only in the 1950's that professional football started in The Netherlands. Many clubs were multi sports clubs and over time had a professional football club split off from the grassroots so one doesn't affect the other. The amateurs and professionals are now separate clubs, despite similar names. They often also have separate grounds, although the professional clubs tend to have youth sides in a ground sharing arrangement with the amateurs. This is the case for Ajax, Feyenoord, Excelsior and plenty of others. Feyenoord for example also have a baseball and basketball side, both playing top flight.

The amateur teams generally are community clubs that have a completely different function. They often have teams for youth players who aren't good enough for the academy, for grassroots teams and all the way down to what's effectively lower Sunday league standard. Movement from the amateurs to the professional sides with the same / similar name is rare. And if it happens, it's seen as an official transfer. If say Feyenoord want a player from their professional side to play for the amateurs, they'd have to agree a transfer or loan, just like with any other club.
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12 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Even if we accept the flimsy nonsense about player development in B teams helping the national team by developing players (it doesn't but let's humour it for a minute), the purpose of lower league football is not to facilitate the national team. Clubs are competing to win trophies, provide entertainment to their communities/supporters and to progress up the structure through their performances on the park. The national team is completely separate.

It's complete nonsense to even bring the national team into this particular argument. The cohort of young players who have even the remotest chance of progressing to international football require to be playing regularly at a far higher standard than that required to hand out a weekly bumming to the unflushables currently hanging around the lower end of the LL. If genuine player development is the goal, they should be competing at Championship level or loaned out to higher level sides elsewhere.

Here's a hypothetical question: if one of the OF sides had a straight choice between giving an extended run in the team to a young player who might in time develop to international level but who in the short to medium term would obviously weaken the team or to go out and sign a foreigner who could slot in and deliver immediately, what choice do you think they'd make?

Exactly - self interest would rule the day. Club football at any level does not exist solely or even primarily to facilitate international football.

 

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3 minutes ago, Marten said:

 Movement from the amateurs to the professional sides with the same / similar name is rare. And if it happens, it's seen as an official transfer. If say Feyenoord want a player from their professional side to play for the amateurs, they'd have to agree a transfer or loan, just like with any other club.

I've always been of the mind if we were to have B teams in Scotland this should be the set up. Not fluid transfers where players will nip down and back up week to week but functioning as an entirely separate side. I can see far more benefit in that set up. Or set up partnerships like Athletic Club and CD Basconia where a smaller club keeps its own identity and set up but the parent club loans players and staff to them every year

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I've always been of the mind if we were to have B teams in Scotland this should be the set up. Not fluid transfers where players will nip down and back up week to week but functioning as an entirely separate side. I can see far more benefit in that set up. Or set up partnerships like Athletic Club and CD Basconia where a smaller club keeps its own identity and set up but the parent club loans players and staff to them every year
Indeed, I think that would get much less opposition and I'd personally be more open to that than the current plans. As long as they start at the bottom though.
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16 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Good to see LTL still getting caught out talking nonsense but grasping the last remaining straw to deflect from looking like a minter hasn't stopped.

In your parallel universe maybe. For years I pointed out factually that the Tay Bridge line of latitude did not actually apply to tier 6 in terms of the rulebooks and had much the same posse of posters doing bizarre intellectual contortions on the subject because they were emotionally invested in the concept that it was in some way crucial. Roll on Monday when that issue should finally be resolved once and for all with the DD postcode area south of the Tay Bridge midpoint feeding into the HL on the way up but not on the way down from the SPFL. Even after the Kelty playoff games SFA officeholders were still trying to strong arm Brechin City into the LL so they clearly never cared about the line of latitude.

Edited by LongTimeLurker
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3 minutes ago, Marten said:
5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:
I've always been of the mind if we were to have B teams in Scotland this should be the set up. Not fluid transfers where players will nip down and back up week to week but functioning as an entirely separate side. I can see far more benefit in that set up. Or set up partnerships like Athletic Club and CD Basconia where a smaller club keeps its own identity and set up but the parent club loans players and staff to them every year

Indeed, I think that would get much less opposition and I'd personally be more open to that than the current plans. As long as they start at the bottom though.

It would also have benefit for smaller clubs. I know this might not be the best example as they went bust but Stranraer/Stranraer Athletic was a good idea. Stranraer are the main, senior club in Stranraer but as they mostly sign players from the central belt and train there having an amateur club that was set up for local players to keep playing at a decent level even if they weren't good enough for the main club. There's a lot of clubs/towns that would benefit from a set up like that. Or an official partnership between, say, Morton/Greenock Juniors, Peterhead/Buchanhaven Hearts, Berwick Rangers/Tweedmouth, etc where the smaller club focuses on local players and loans from the bigger club.

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3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Or an official partnership between, say, Morton/Greenock Juniors, Peterhead/Buchanhaven Hearts, Berwick Rangers/Tweedmouth, etc where the smaller club focuses on local players and loans from the bigger club.

Won't be long before Berwick are playing the wee team in that relationship.

Greenock Juniors (and the Port) can f**k off; there is room for one team from Greater Greenock and one team only in the pyramid. 

Rothesay Brandane should be our first satellite club.  

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9 minutes ago, virginton said:

Won't be long before Berwick are playing the wee team in that relationship.

Greenock Juniors (and the Port) can f**k off; there is room for one team from Greater Greenock and one team only in the pyramid. 

Rothesay Brandane should be our first satellite club.  

Dunoon Ams. Cowal has already provided us with half a dozen players to Bute's one. 

Although various Morton satellite teams dotted around Argyll should be the first order of business for MCT once they take over

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15 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Dunoon Ams. Cowal has already provided us with half a dozen players to Bute's one. 

Although various Morton satellite teams dotted around Argyll should be the first order of business for MCT once they take over

Our failed regens deserve to be shipped off from the Mainland to a Craggy/Rugged island holding pen so Bute fits the bill perfectly. At least until Wee Cumbrae is repopulated.

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1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

It's complete nonsense to even bring the national team into this particular argument. The cohort of young players who have even the remotest chance of progressing to international football require to be playing regularly at a far higher standard than that required to hand out a weekly bumming to the unflushables currently hanging around the lower end of the LL. If genuine player development is the goal, they should be competing at Championship level or loaned out to higher level sides elsewhere.

Here's a hypothetical question: if one of the OF sides had a straight choice between giving an extended run in the team to a young player who might in time develop to international level but who in the short to medium term would obviously weaken the team or to go out and sign a foreigner who could slot in and deliver immediately, what choice do you think they'd make?

Exactly - self interest would rule the day. Club football at any level does not exist solely or even primarily to facilitate international football.

 

Mince

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On 15/06/2021 at 15:57, Che Dail said:

Frustration. 

Here's another attempt.  Please watch this, just 8 minutes of your life,  and tell me you believe nothing is being done (by the OF) to look at wider measures to improve youth development in Scotland.   This video, LITERALLY, is published online and freely available.

Rangers consulted EVERY club, and sought to implement the feedback in their transition paper, of which, B Teams was a part.  If nothing is being done, it is not for the want of trying.

They believe that Scotland is the only country in Europe NOT to have a pathway from 17 to 21 years old.  They state that their findings are 'steeped in data', and they are following 'strategies that have worked in other countries'.

The implementation of B Teams is 'clearly to their benefit', and Strategic Partnerships might work for others.

 

 

Rangers believe that a business model predicated on allowing it's customers to sing songs about wading through F*nian blood week in week out is an acceptable one in the third decade of the 21st century. The rest of us believe that they're utter c*nts and have no interest in what they have to say on any level.

Edited by Bad Wolf
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27 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Mince

Really? Let's say the likes of David Turnbull had gone down with a cruciate injury just before the winter transfer window last year - the likelihood of Celtic saying "Ah, f**k it - we'll just slot in one of the kids for the rest of the season" is almost non-existent.

Likewise, the only reason Patterson broke through at Rangers  last season was through necessity rather than design...he was the only realistic alternative option to Tavernier available to them at that point in the season.

 

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1 hour ago, virginton said:

Our failed regens deserve to be shipped off from the Mainland to a Craggy/Rugged island holding pen so Bute fits the bill perfectly. At least until Wee Cumbrae is repopulated.

Whit has Bute done to deserve to be inflicted with that sort of treatment ????

There are much smaller islands like Broad isle off Cumbrae, Holy Isle & Pladda island off Arran which would fit the bill & give them a much more uncomfortable existence !!

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One of the pro-B teams arguments is that players will function under the same tactics, training and management-style from teenage to first team.

Then they step up to the national team and for the first time in their lives have to adapt to a new way of doing things in less than a week.

Surely loaning players out teaches them how to cope with new styles and situations far better than coralling hundreds of them in the same system for a decade?

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22 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

One of the pro-B teams arguments is that players will function under the same tactics, training and management-style from teenage to first team.

Then they step up to the national team and for the first time in their lives have to adapt to a new way of doing things in less than a week.

Surely loaning players out teaches them how to cope with new styles and situations far better than coralling hundreds of them in the same system for a decade?

This is the main argument for B team involvement over loan moves and you're spot on. It doesn't benefit the player to have only experienced one system and one role within that system, it only benefits the parent club on the occasion where they might need to call the payer into the first team.

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