Jump to content

Celtic and Rangers B Teams in League Two?


falski

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, geo87 said:

Stambles, after such a promising start to his “career” in football governance / admin, I truly hope George Fraser is never given any chance to influence any football decisions again in the Scottish game.

Oh, and that his pointless club goes bust.

Sad sad day for Scottish football.

He'll be future Head of Player Pathway to the LL via Rangers Youth Development Strategic Planning and Get to Keep Wearing a Blazer Department.

Ewing the equivalent at Celtic once the French see through him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Marten said:

There are 6 in total, 2 have a B-team in the third tier. Yet there are 34 full-time teams who have all been offered on more than one occasion to get a B-team in the structure, 22 of them never bothered and a further 6 joined but then pulled out after one or just a handful of seasons, usually stating that it wasn't having the desired effect.

It's a blended approach.  In Scotland, what works for Rangers and Celtic might also be suitable for Hearts and Hibs but possibly not for Aberdeen or Dundee United.

Is the B team model in Holland exclusive to those 6 FT clubs?  Is there an option, or freedom of choice, if another club wanted to test it?

Holland is over 3 times more populous than Scotland,  with 34 full-time teams plus(?) 6x  B teams. 

Scotland has 22(ish) full-time teams (although I doubt that number is sustainable given the drop in attendances over the past 10-20 years). 

Yet Rangers and Celtic clearly can sustain two squads of full-time players because they have the support and resources to do it.  I daresay Hearts and Hibs could too.  4x B teams out of 22 FT clubs is an equivalent ratio to the situation in Holland. 

It might work, it might not - but I think the option should be made available to try, and that's what they're attempting now.

An alternative to B teams is the 'Strategic Partnership' - like Stenhousemuir & Hibs have entered into.  So if they relegate another club, say Cowdenbeath, using 6+ full time loan players on terms agreeable only to those clubs, (i.e. someone else is picking up their wages) does that support the principles of sporting merit, and the integrity of the pyramid? In this scenario, Stenny have effectively been 'doped' with the introduction of professional FT players.  Is that fair and reasonable?

If we accept that the best full time youth players must be playing in a competitive football environment against men (best v best) in order to develop, I'm not sure that there's a right or wrong approach that doesn't have some effect on others. 

Question is does the wider benefit outweigh the detrimental effect it might have on others?  We won't know until we try.  In year 1, nobody loses anything, and at the end of the season we get data to inform future choices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

It doesn't really take a genius to work it out though. I've been giving you a bit of credit and assuming you're being disingenuous, rather than stupid. 

No, I took it that you were saying I am stupid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Gordon EF said:

I'm not trying to prove how intelligent I am. I'm not sure not providing any evidence of my intelligence is the zinger you think it is.

 

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Well it's either disingenuous or stupid. Take your pick.

Thanks for the choice. Although I wouldn't say you are stupid, maybe just a bit ignorant.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

 

Thanks for the choice. Although I wouldn't say you are stupid, maybe just a bit ignorant.  

Well I asked for the evidence that colt teams worked earlier. I'm always open to being educated..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Gordon EF said:

Well I asked for the evidence that colt teams worked earlier. I'm always open to being educated..

I honestly don't think that you are - You've adopted a position and are entrenched in it.  You're not alone in this, but that's part of the nature of the world - you don't have to agree with everything people say or do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I honestly don't think that you are - You've adopted a position and are entrenched in it.  You're not alone in this, but that's part of the nature of the world - you don't have to agree with everything people say or do.

I've never pretended that I'm not opposed to the idea of colt side on principle. What I've said I'm open to being educated on is the alleged benefits colt sides bring in terms of player development. This is pretty much the central argument of introducing colt sides. If there was solid evidence that colt sides would significantly improve future generations of Scottish players, I might soften my stance on them, I might not. 

The whole pro-colts argument is that it improves players. I'm very sceptical about that. With B teams in existence for decades, and big clubs desperate to get colt sides into the leagues, proving that they lead to significantly better players is an absolute open goal. Prove that and half the battle is won. The fact that nobody can point to any evidence for it is pretty telling.

Edited by Gordon EF
Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I've never pretended that I'm not opposed to the idea of colt side on principle. What I've said I'm open to being educated on is the alleged benefits colt sides bring in terms of player development. This is pretty much the central argument of introducing colt sides. If there was solid evidence that colt sides would significantly improve future generations of Scottish players, I might soften my stance on them, I might not. 

The whole pro-colts argument is that it improves players. I'm very sceptical about that. With B teams in existence for decades, and big clubs desperate to get colt sides into the leagues, proving that they lead to significantly better players is an absolute open goal. Prove that and half the battle is won. The fact that nobody can point to any evidence for it is pretty telling.

Even if it was proven that Colt sides improved players a lot of fans would still be against them. Why should two teams get an advantage over everyone else? Why should a competitive league be used as a means to improve other teams' players? Why should fans of lower league teams, whose interest is obviously their own team, see their teams used as fodder for the benefit of other teams?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Even if it was proven that Colt sides improved players a lot of fans would still be against them. Why should two teams get an advantage over everyone else? Why should a competitive league be used as a means to improve other teams' players? Why should fans of lower league teams, whose interest is obviously their own team, see their teams used as fodder for the benefit of other teams?

I agree with all of that. But unless a very good argument can be made for the central (only) argument for colts, then it should be a complete no-go. If that kind of evidence can be provided, then the discussion can move on to the things you mention and then it's essentially a trade-off and we decide whether it's worth it. Until you have something to trade-off against, there's no proper debate to be had.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there's no automatic promotion and relegation between SPFL2 and Tier 5 ready for 2022/23 then this will be out the window.

It's down to Rangers and Celtic to come up with the goods and they have a year to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fully support the idea of colt teams in the Lowland and Highland League. 

I think Hearts and Hibs should have colt teams in the Lowland League. 

I am a big believer in giving young players opportunities,

The more opportunities for young players, the more players will develop, 

They play second teams of the big sides in the lower leagues in Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain, 

All we hear about is getting experienced players for the international team. Well this is how to get more experienced players. 

Kenny Dalglish played for a year in the Juniors leagues, That was one of Scotland two best ever players,   

Look at the famous Motherwell side of James McFadden.. They basically threw a good chunk of their youth team into the adult game because they were in administration and it resulted in loads of great Scottish players like McFadden, Pearson, Hammell., Clarkson, all developed into top players, 

I think you could take any year in any Scottish Premier youth sides and throw them into adult football and some of them would develop into top players,

Sometimes players you would not expect. 

In the real world clubs cannot throw their entire youth teams into the first team in the Premier. They would get relegated, But this idea of second teams being allowed to play, allows teams to throw entire youth sides into competitive adult soccer,  

Some claim that they are against this idea as it might help Celtic and Rangers, Well that is a nonsense anti-Scottish argument. As the only way it can help Celtic or Rangers is that it would help them develop top young players, So you are against Celtic and Rangers producing good Scottish players. That is a disgrace,. No wonder Scotland has failed in international football, if a significant proportion of fans would rather clubs fail to produce top Scottish players out of tribal rivalry.

 

I support Scotland. I also support all Scottish clubs in Europe.  But we should make sure all top Scottish players develop, regardless of who they play for. 

Some people would rather the international team fail. 

Some people would rather a part time team finish 3 or 4 places higher in the league, than Scotland produce top players, 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

Some claim that they are against this idea as it might help Celtic and Rangers, Well that is a nonsense anti-Scottish argument. As the only way it can help Celtic or Rangers is that it would help them develop top young players, So you are against Celtic and Rangers producing good Scottish players. That is a disgrace,. No wonder Scotland has failed in international football, if a significant proportion of fans would rather clubs fail to produce top Scottish players out of tribal rivalry.

No offence or anything mate, but you come across as being really, really stupid. I mean, leaving aside all the rest of your gibberish, this paragraph is just something else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

No offence or anything mate, but you come across as being really, really stupid. I mean, leaving aside all the rest of your gibberish, this paragraph is just something else.

"No Offence". Really? Come on!

Like it or not it's happening for one season although no-one believes it will be just one season, including me.

After all if someone buys the idea that it will help bring through young professional footballers to Premier Division standard then don't decry it - give it a chance. Decry it when / if it fails?

The National team has been performing below expectations so give a the idea a chance. Decry it after 5-7 years when it maybe can be seen that it doesn't work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Dev said:

"No Offence". Really? Come on!

Like it or not it's happening for one season although no-one believes it will be just one season, including me.

After all if someone buys the idea that it will help bring through young professional footballers to Premier Division standard then don't decry it - give it a chance. Decry it when / if it fails?

The National team has been performing below expectations so give a the idea a chance. Decry it after 5-7 years when it maybe can be seen that it doesn't work.

Aye, I don't really mind if the boy takes offence or not tbh.

I'll decry it now on the basis that I don't actually give a shit if it helps turn Jamie Barjonas et al into world beaters, I don't think B teams should be in senior leagues because they completely devalue the leagues as proper competitions. If, in 5-7 years, the Scottish national team is full of guys who came through colt teams, I'll still oppose them being in the league system. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Thistle Scotland Europe said:

I fully support the idea of colt teams in the Lowland and Highland League. 

I think Hearts and Hibs should have colt teams in the Lowland League. 

I am a big believer in giving young players opportunities,

The more opportunities for young players, the more players will develop, 

They play second teams of the big sides in the lower leagues in Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain, 

All we hear about is getting experienced players for the international team. Well this is how to get more experienced players. 

Kenny Dalglish played for a year in the Juniors leagues, That was one of Scotland two best ever players,   

Look at the famous Motherwell side of James McFadden.. They basically threw a good chunk of their youth team into the adult game because they were in administration and it resulted in loads of great Scottish players like McFadden, Pearson, Hammell., Clarkson, all developed into top players, 

I think you could take any year in any Scottish Premier youth sides and throw them into adult football and some of them would develop into top players,

Sometimes players you would not expect. 

In the real world clubs cannot throw their entire youth teams into the first team in the Premier. They would get relegated, But this idea of second teams being allowed to play, allows teams to throw entire youth sides into competitive adult soccer,  

Some claim that they are against this idea as it might help Celtic and Rangers, Well that is a nonsense anti-Scottish argument. As the only way it can help Celtic or Rangers is that it would help them develop top young players, So you are against Celtic and Rangers producing good Scottish players. That is a disgrace,. No wonder Scotland has failed in international football, if a significant proportion of fans would rather clubs fail to produce top Scottish players out of tribal rivalry.

 

I support Scotland. I also support all Scottish clubs in Europe.  But we should make sure all top Scottish players develop, regardless of who they play for. 

Some people would rather the international team fail. 

Some people would rather a part time team finish 3 or 4 places higher in the league, than Scotland produce top players, 

It's fair enough if that's what you think but there are two main issues I'd take with what you've written.

1. Absolutely nobody is against giving young players more experience. At the moment, to get first team experience, young players at big clubs can either get first team experience with their own clubs or go on loan. If you're going to argue in favour of colts, you have to explain how playing in a colt side is better experience than going on loan. 

2. Absolutely nobody is against colts because it benefits the OF. The point being made is that of course the OF are in favour of it because it will benefit them in terms of hoarding young players, not that colts will produce better players. The accusation is that the pro-colt argument that it will produce better players is simply a smokescreen for the true goal of the OF hoarding more young Scottish players so that they're less likely to lose out on a Robertson or McGinn or have to pay clubs like Motherwell for a Turnbull.

Edited by Gordon EF
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...