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Celtic and Rangers B Teams in League Two?


falski

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Just now, Che Dail said:

There is evidence that some countries are a lot better than Scotland at developing football players from youth to adult football.  There is evidence that some clubs have the very best youth academies.  In some of those countries, and at some of those clubs, B Teams play a part in the player pathway. 

That is enough 'evidence', in my opinion, to explore if it's something worth trying here.

So, no.

Of course you want to to try it. You're in favour of colts in principle, so you're going to look for anything to back that up. "Spain do it and they're good" is not evidence that colt sides produce better players at all. But the argument that might start to change some people's mind is evidence that it actually does produce better players. Nobody has come forward with this, which kind of makes me suspect it doesn't exist.

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People involved with Ajax, who have a B-team, aren't exactly neutral on the issue. But to stay with The Netherlands, Feyenoord have one of the best youth set-ups in the country (arguably the second best after Ajax). They have never bothered with a B-team even though they had the chance a few times. They say it doesn't do much for player development and instead prefer a system of loans & regularly give youngsters a chance in the first team. 

It's such a vital thing in the Dutch youth set-up that the 2 largest academies don't even agree with each other on the issue...

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2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Yeah, it's really clever to ignore the likes of Marco van Basten, Louis van Gaal, Pep Guardiola, Steven Gerrard.  What do they know about football, they're all  stupid.

They're not stupid. They're biased. So taking what they have to say on this matter as gospel is, I'm afraid, stupid.

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If a person said they'd spoken to Michael Reizeger, Luis van Gaal, Marco van Basten and Pieter Huistra, and feedback was positive (based on their experience having played and / or managed Ajax Jong) would you accept it? 
And if it could be shown that Johan Cruyff supported B Teams at Barcelona and Ajax, would you still persist with your close-minded view?
We're talking about the best youth academy in Europe, one of the most successful club sides in the world and a Dutch legend. 
But, naw.  
I'm really surprised you support this half-cocked nonsense and the damage it does to the reputation of the Pyramid.
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Just now, Burnieman said:
41 minutes ago, Che Dail said:
If a person said they'd spoken to Michael Reizeger, Luis van Gaal, Marco van Basten and Pieter Huistra, and feedback was positive (based on their experience having played and / or managed Ajax Jong) would you accept it? 
And if it could be shown that Johan Cruyff supported B Teams at Barcelona and Ajax, would you still persist with your close-minded view?
We're talking about the best youth academy in Europe, one of the most successful club sides in the world and a Dutch legend. 
But, naw.  

I'm really surprised you support this half-cocked nonsense and the damage it does to the reputation of the Pyramid.

But it doesn't do any damage whatsoever to the pyramid!!! 

Life goes on as normal - nothing has changed with respect to promotion or relegation. 

If the LL / EoS / WoS don't open up to 3 or 4 up and down, then I'd think that there's a problem with the integrity and reputation of the pyramid, but the OF B teams is a side issue to this matter.

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People involved with Ajax, who have a B-team, aren't exactly neutral on the issue. But to stay with The Netherlands, Feyenoord have one of the best youth set-ups in the country (arguably the second best after Ajax). They have never bothered with a B-team even though they had the chance a few times. They say it doesn't do much for player development and instead prefer a system of loans & regularly give youngsters a chance in the first team. 
It's such a vital thing in the Dutch youth set-up that the 2 largest academies don't even agree with each other on the issue...
Marten, am I right in saying only 4 Dutch clubs have a B team, or are there others kicking about the lower levels?
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5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
19 minutes ago, Marten said:
People involved with Ajax, who have a B-team, aren't exactly neutral on the issue. But to stay with The Netherlands, Feyenoord have one of the best youth set-ups in the country (arguably the second best after Ajax). They have never bothered with a B-team even though they had the chance a few times. They say it doesn't do much for player development and instead prefer a system of loans & regularly give youngsters a chance in the first team. 
It's such a vital thing in the Dutch youth set-up that the 2 largest academies don't even agree with each other on the issue...

Marten, am I right in saying only 4 Dutch clubs have a B team, or are there others kicking about the lower levels?

There are 6 in total, 2 have a B-team in the third tier. Yet there are 34 full-time teams who have all been offered on more than one occasion to get a B-team in the structure, 22 of them never bothered and a further 6 joined but then pulled out after one or just a handful of seasons, usually stating that it wasn't having the desired effect.

Edited by Marten
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But it doesn't do any damage whatsoever to the pyramid!!! 
Life goes on as normal - nothing has changed with respect to promotion or relegation. 
If the LL / EoS / WoS don't open up to 3 or 4 up and down, then I'd think that there's a problem with the integrity and reputation of the pyramid, but the OF B teams is a side issue to this matter.
It's done reputational damage both externally, and internally with the tier 6 leagues. Particularly as there appears to be no offer of increased promotion.

The Colts concept has taken a matter of weeks to happen, whilst it's been years we've been waiting for an increase in promotion and relegation spots.

That's not a good look, that doesn't strengthen relationships, or increase "ventilation".
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There are 6 in total, 2 have a B-team in the third tier. Yet there are 34 full-time teams who have all been offered on more than one occasion to get a B-team in the structure, 22 of them never bothered and a further 6 joined but then pulled out after one or just a handful of seasons, usually stating that it wasn't having the desired effect.
Thanks. I think it's a far from compelling argument to point to the Dutch system and say it works, if the vast majority of pro clubs don't bother with it.
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26 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You don't have a clue because you've not even read the summary graphic that was circulated to all clubs and shared on here previously.

Is a phoney 'argument' you make because you haven't bothered to look into it yet.

Not just myself, most journalists seem to have missed that summary graphic aswell. 

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14 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

ok Einstein 👍

You're wasted on P&B, such a great mind.

It doesn't really take a genius to work it out though. I've been giving you a bit of credit and assuming you're being disingenuous, rather than stupid. 

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5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:
8 minutes ago, Marten said:
There are 6 in total, 2 have a B-team in the third tier. Yet there are 34 full-time teams who have all been offered on more than one occasion to get a B-team in the structure, 22 of them never bothered and a further 6 joined but then pulled out after one or just a handful of seasons, usually stating that it wasn't having the desired effect.

Thanks. I think it's a far from compelling argument to point to the Dutch system and say it works, if the vast majority of pro clubs don't bother with it.

Agreed, some would argue they work (like Ajax), yet plenty would argue there are better ways for talent development (Feyenoord being one key example as I said above). It's clear that even within the country there are different opinions. But as I said above, even those that argue they do work, see it as just the one of the last steps in the extensive Dutch youth structure and not a vital one. I'm all for a proper debate on what's wrong with the Scottish youth development. I agree changes are needed, but colt teams are just lazily seen as a "quick fix", while the actual issues are not even being discussed.

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29 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

They're not stupid. They're biased. So taking what they have to say on this matter as gospel is, I'm afraid, stupid.

There’s also the fact that former footballers are, quite often, complete morons with terrible opinions. Paul Scholes spent all of Wednesday banging on about how shite Villarreal and La Liga are. Gordon Strachan reckoned Scotland didn’t qualify for stuff because of genetics. It’s hardly a stretch to suggest that, maybe Steven Gerrard’s (bought and paid for) opinion isn’t everything.

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1 minute ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

There’s also the fact that former footballers are, quite often, complete morons with terrible opinions. Paul Scholes spent all of Wednesday banging on about how shite Villarreal and La Liga are. Gordon Strachan reckoned Scotland didn’t qualify for stuff because of genetics. It’s hardly a stretch to suggest that, maybe Steven Gerrard’s (bought and paid for) opinion isn’t everything.

Yeah, there's plenty of evidence that being a very good footballer doesn't necessarily mean you've smart or your opinions are worth listening to, even when it comes to football.

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5 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

There’s also the fact that former footballers are, quite often, complete morons with terrible opinions. Paul Scholes spent all of Wednesday banging on about how shite Villarreal and La Liga are. Gordon Strachan reckoned Scotland didn’t qualify for stuff because of genetics. It’s hardly a stretch to suggest that, maybe Steven Gerrard’s (bought and paid for) opinion isn’t everything.

In the end of the day, Steven Gerrard is an employee of Rangers. Obviously he wouldn't publicly go against what his employer wants. It's quite normal for your employer to want their staff to voice the company's official position on certain issues. With Rangers/Gerrard it's just out in the open as they are often in the media, but it happens in all sort of businesses, including my own employer and probably the ones of most people posting on here.

Edited by Marten
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12 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

It's done reputational damage both externally, and internally with the tier 6 leagues. Particularly as there appears to be no offer of increased promotion.

The Colts concept has taken a matter of weeks to happen, whilst it's been years we've been waiting for an increase in promotion and relegation spots.

That's not a good look, that doesn't strengthen relationships, or increase "ventilation".

Yes - I don't disagree with any of that - it's all happened very quickly.

However, I don't think that damage to image and reputation, whether perceived or real, is a good enough reason in itself not to proceed.  The member clubs have now voted and confirmed their decision after much deliberation, and those who voted against the proposal have accepted it and will move forward.  Time will tell if it's a good decision or a bad one.

I'm not sure there definitely is no offer of increased promotion / relegation yet - when would this be discussed, agreed and announced(?)   

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27 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Yeah, there's plenty of evidence that being a very good footballer doesn't necessarily mean you've smart or your opinions are worth listening to, even when it comes to football.

You're certainly putting up lots of evidence about your own level of intelligence.

Good for you 👍

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