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Celtic and Rangers B Teams in League Two?


falski

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9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Sorry you think that, but it was in response to a patronising post.

Because Marten is from the Netherlands, we should take his opinionated  word as gospel on Dutch football.

Over people like, for example, Johan Cruyff and Pep Guardiola. If it was such a bad idea they'd have stripped it from Barcelona.

 

Yet again, you don't come with any counter-arguments on the last post I made and just come up with people who support the idea. As I said before, Scotland is a different country with different structures and colt teams won't resolve the situation. The actual issues with youth development are not even being debated!

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3 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This Che Dail doesn't seem like a serious customer, to be honest.

He's either very skilfully exposing the utter paucity of merit on the pro-colts side of the argument or a bit dim. Not sure which.

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1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

He's either very skilfully exposing the utter paucity of merit on the pro-colts side of the argument or a bit dim. Not sure which.

It's a bit like arguing the merits of Brexit by posting a series of quotes from Nigel Farage.

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Imagine there is a children's hospital with absolute state of the art equipment, top class doctors and a very good co-operation/communication with local GPs and they also have clowns in the hospital to entertain the children to make them feel a bit better. People running a children's hospital in a different area with very outdated equipment, and underqualified doctors who don't even communicate with GPs in their area see that other hospital and are impressed by the recovery rates from horrible diseases over there. Then they just decide to employ some clowns ignoring the equipment, staff qualifications & communication issues to then claim: "it works in the other hospital, so this will solve all our issues".

 

That's essentially the logic of pro-colt team advocates like Che Dail on development of players in Scotland.

Edited by Marten
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16 hours ago, dougster said:

Some interesting comments and some absolute pish too. On the Berwick fan Facebook page, we did a poll with the vast majority coming out against the Colts joining however the powers that be, with the organised Supporters groups, decided to go with the League proposal. There's good arguments for and against but some of the numpties on here calling for a boycott or petitions who have never been near a Lowland league game are just stirring the shite, and one or two of their own club's ownership has been questionable for years.  I'm not too enamoured with the decision myself, I know some Berwick fans are absolutely livid. Of course it's about money, every club will want the benefit and I bet you none of the five 'no' voters will turn down the extra money they receive.

So calm down Space Cadets and get your own houses in order first before you start throwing stones.

Hope your club dies m8.

13 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Lionel Messi played in a B team and he's a few % better than everyone else.

Pele didn't play for a B team at all and he only played for one club for much of his career. I think this proves that transfers are bad and we should ban transfers. You see how fucking stupid you look?

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10 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Scottish (and English) football is relatively rare in that it has relatively well-supported clubs and relatively thriving leagues right down to the levels. Since Croatia is mentioned so often, their second tier (this is clubs ranked 11th - 29th in their system) and where these B teams operate had an average attendance of just 486 in season 2018/19. And even then, only one club had an average attendance of over 500. No B team had an average attendance over 300.

That's less than League Two in Scotland. Pollock Juniors would be the 11th best supported club in the whole Croatian league if they were in it. Lower league football in Scotland is far stronger than in most European countries and far more people are invested in it. That makes a difference.

Just wanted to follow up on my thought here. But maybe it's precisely because there are no B teams and the whole league competitions from top to bottom of the Scottish game have always had that competitive integrity that it's so strong compare to other countries. Scotland is consistently at the top of league tables like 'highest % of the population regularly attending live football matches'. I'm 100% sure that is because we haven't allowed our lower levels (including HL, the juniors, etc) to become devalued by having B teams and youth teams in them. Scottish football below the Premier might not be the highest quality out there but it's extremely competitive, entertaining and very important to the people that watch it and support it.

There are criticisms to be levelled at it. The SPFL being a closed shop for over a century was a disgrace and the limited access from tier 5 to 4 and from tier 6 to 5 is not acceptable. But the creation of the pyramid has been a huge step forward and I'm confident these issues can be fixed in time. It's the best thing that's happened to Scottish football in recent times and almost immediately, the OF are looking to get their claws into it.

I don't accept at all that B teams will increase the standard of the national team but there is a valid point in here somewhere. What happens when a proposal helps the national team or player development but harms the league? What is the primary purpose of the SPFL and the various league bodies below it? Is it to provide a competitive, entertaining league that helps support club football in Scotland? Or does it exist to help the national team. the one thing it definitely should not do is exist to support the ambitions of two rich clubs to the detriment of everyone else. Leaving these decisions to the OF is like leaving a Labrador with 14 bowls of food when you're away for a fortnight. The thing'll eat them all within minutes and then starve to death after a few days. The OF will permanently damage Scottish football if they think it gives them the slightest financial or competitive edge. And they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

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7 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Just wanted to follow up on my thought here. But maybe it's precisely because there are no B teams and the whole league competitions from top to bottom of the Scottish game have always had that competitive integrity that it's so strong compare to other countries. Scotland is consistently at the top of league tables like 'highest % of the population regularly attending live football matches'. I'm 100% sure that is because we haven't allowed our lower levels (including HL, the juniors, etc) to become devalued by having B teams and youth teams in them. Scottish football below the Premier might not be the highest quality out there but it's extremely competitive, entertaining and very important to the people that watch it and support it.

There are criticisms to be levelled at it. The SPFL being a closed shop for over a century was a disgrace and the limited access from tier 5 to 4 and from tier 6 to 5 is not acceptable. But the creation of the pyramid has been a huge step forward and I'm confident these issues can be fixed in time. It's the best thing that's happened to Scottish football in recent times and almost immediately, the OF are looking to get their claws into it.

I don't accept at all that B teams will increase the standard of the national team but there is a valid point in here somewhere. What happens when a proposal helps the national team or player development but harms the league? What is the primary purpose of the SPFL and the various league bodies below it? Is it to provide a competitive, entertaining league that helps support club football in Scotland? Or does it exist to help the national team. the one thing it definitely should not do is exist to support the ambitions of two rich clubs to the detriment of everyone else. Leaving these decisions to the OF is like leaving a Labrador with 14 bowls of food when you're away for a fortnight. The thing'll eat them all within minutes and then starve to death after a few days. The OF will permanently damage Scottish football if they think it gives them the slightest financial or competitive edge. And they shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Interesting stats vs the Croatian league there Gordon. Makes you quite proud of our game at that level. Pollock, essentially a sleeping Croatian giant 😁

I live in hope that the AGM will change the direction of this ship away from the rocks before it crashes upon the OF colts disaster. Hearing Kelty will likely vote no on current numbers given.

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11 minutes ago, leomessi1984 said:

Interesting stats vs the Croatian league there Gordon. Makes you quite proud of our game at that level. Pollock, essentially a sleeping Croatian giant 😁

I live in hope that the AGM will change the direction of this ship away from the rocks before it crashes upon the OF colts disaster. Hearing Kelty will likely vote no on current numbers given.

It does. Good to hear about Kelty. Might even encourage me to take in one of the 'new' derby games at NCP next season vs Cowden. 

Long term, die-hard supporters are the absolute life-blood of the vast majority of football clubs. Keeping them and getting new ones are absolute crucial. Not short term, money grabbing. It genuinely astounds me that clubs like Berwick and Shire don't seem to grasp that and are willing to risk that.

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If we accept there is a place for Colts teams.(I don't).
Can you then accept they should be in the West of Scotland Football League and nowhere near the lowland league ?
In fact why would they not develop just as well playing Neilston and Cambuslang rather than Vale of Leithen and Edinburgh University ?
Che Dull certainly still not answered my question.
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This is from ESFC director Ian Fleming, on the surface not much too it, but he thinks the vote would have gone differently if this has been more than a one season incursion by the OF. Nonetheless, the final sentence seems to suggest there have been private revelations, to the LL at least, that the pair of clubs think they will be taking their colts to a different stage in 2022.


"A lot of people seem to think this was done purely for money but given it's only £50,00 to the league, that isn't automatically given to the clubs and even if it was it would be little over £3000 each, although that’s not to be scoffed at it won't change anyone’s season and is pretty negligible in the grand schemes of things.
Given it's only for one year, and we've had that confirmed, the rule of the league will be changed and extending beyond one season would have to go to another vote.
It seemed the majority of clubs would not be keen on that based on last night’s meeting, at this moment in time we would not vote to extend it beyond this season.
From our point of view this won't be detrimental to any tier six teams, as none were going to be promoted after last season anyway, so they are not taking a place form any other team.”


Fleming added that he believes having the two teams in the division will bring new eyes to the Lowland League as well as increased attention in media outlets, something that can only be seen as a positive.


"We felt it was a great way, rightly or wrongly, to highlight the league to new people and that hopefully gives us something to build on in the future after Rangers and Celtic have gone off to wherever they go at the end of the season.

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/sport/football/east-stirlingshire-vote-in-favour-of-celtic-and-rangers-joining-lowland-league-for-one-season-only-3232280

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16 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

This is from ESFC director Ian Fleming, on the surface not much too it, but he thinks the vote would have gone differently if this has been more than a one season incursion by the OF. Nonetheless, the final sentence seems to suggest there have been private revelations, to the LL at least, that the pair of clubs think they will be taking their colts to a different stage in 2022.


"A lot of people seem to think this was done purely for money but given it's only £50,00 to the league, that isn't automatically given to the clubs and even if it was it would be little over £3000 each, although that’s not to be scoffed at it won't change anyone’s season and is pretty negligible in the grand schemes of things.
Given it's only for one year, and we've had that confirmed, the rule of the league will be changed and extending beyond one season would have to go to another vote.
It seemed the majority of clubs would not be keen on that based on last night’s meeting, at this moment in time we would not vote to extend it beyond this season.
From our point of view this won't be detrimental to any tier six teams, as none were going to be promoted after last season anyway, so they are not taking a place form any other team.”


Fleming added that he believes having the two teams in the division will bring new eyes to the Lowland League as well as increased attention in media outlets, something that can only be seen as a positive.


"We felt it was a great way, rightly or wrongly, to highlight the league to new people and that hopefully gives us something to build on in the future after Rangers and Celtic have gone off to wherever they go at the end of the season.

https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/sport/football/east-stirlingshire-vote-in-favour-of-celtic-and-rangers-joining-lowland-league-for-one-season-only-3232280

It's not about money. It's about attention, and that attention will generate....?

Club chairmen might swallow this guff about increased media attention and crowds. I suspect sponsors will be a little bit more hard-nosed about it.

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6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

It's not about money. It's about attention, and that attention will generate....?

Club chairmen might swallow this guff about increased media attention and crowds. I suspect sponsors will be a little bit more hard-nosed about it.

I'm sure the sponsors are battering down to the door right now :whistle

They've had sponsors before (Scottish Sun, Ferrari Packaging, and GeoSonic) which never translated into prize money or an increased profile. Not really sure what amount they'd be targeting for it anyway.

It's one of the reason a 3 way split Highland, West, and East makes more sense longer term. As they'd be able to tap into regional businesses for sponsorships and have memberships of 60+ teams. Instead of the standalone 16 team Lowland that it's competing against the larger WoSFL and EoSFL. Which is probably why Lowland League Two got a mention the other day.

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6 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm sure the sponsors are battering down to the door right now :whistle

They've had sponsors before (Scottish Sun, Ferrari Packaging, and GeoSonic) which never translated into prize money or an increased profile. Not really sure what amount they'd be targeting for it anyway.

It's one of the reason a 3 way split Highland, West, and East makes more sense longer term. As they'd be able to tap into regional businesses for sponsorships and have memberships of 60+ teams. Instead of the standalone 16 team Lowland that it's competing against the larger WoSFL and EoSFL. Which is probably why Lowland League Two got a mention the other day.

I really don't understand the blanket refusal of the three feeder league idea, unless the plan is to move to automatic promotion for all tier 5 champions. I can understand why the SPFL are skittish about 3 automatic promotion and relegation places. But automatic promotion doesn't even seem to be on the cards for now.

Two of the major problems with tier 5 right now is the population imbalance between the HL and LL catchment areas and the Tayside/Angus problem. North, East and West leagues at tier 5 solves these at a stroke.

If the juniors had taken the initiative years ago instead of leaving it to the East of Scotland League, that could have had a chance.

Edited by Gordon EF
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