Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Spyro]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Do you think Steven Gerrard was reading off a script and being told what to say and think? Because his employer said so, and he'd better toe the line or else? 

I strongly suspect the man would still have a future at Rangers or elsewhere in the game if he disagreed with B teams concept. He's clearly very competent, and capable of forming his own informed opinion.

We are only asking you to provide INDEPENDENT evidence. You know, from someone who isn’t directly involved... but it’s ok. I can’t really be arsed going round in circles on this. Suppose we will find out when a Scotland squad full of ex-Rangers and Celtic Colts players are in the knockout stages of the 2026 World Cup

[Le Tout P'ti FC]

It seems rather fatuous to compare the developmental benefits of Ajax II playing in the Dutch Eerste Divisie (T2) against e.g. NAC Breda or Go Ahead Eagles, to the anticipated developmental benefits of the Colts playing in the Lowland League (T5) against e.g. Gretna 2008 or Caledonian Braves.

As avid readers of the Guardian's Dutch football output will no doubt know, the better comparison here would be to Ajax Amateurs, who play in the Derde Divisie (T4).

I couldn't possibly hazard an opinion on the quality of Ajax Amateurs, unless I had actually seen them play. Thankfully I have, versus FC Lisse in October 2019. Lisse won 2-1. (I was in town for a Twilight Sad gig.)

The standard of football was woeful, it made me feel quite at home actually. But the smaller stadium within De Toekomst which houses the Amateurs would at least manage to get a licence here and, Firhill besides, very few of our stadia have canals passing by the touchline.

I don't believe any of those Ajax Amateur or FC Lisse players are destined to grace the stage of the World Cup in Qatar, but time will tell, elite development is a difficult thing to forecast.

Can we perhaps stop comparing the Dutch model (T2) to the Colts Lowland League model (T5)? It's a false premise. The Colts are not going to be playing against the quality of players here which they would encounter in the Eerste Divisie, they are going to be playing against Scottish fifth tier players.

Which is not to say I hope we parachute the Colts into our T2. That idea can also go firmly into the bin, or into the bak as they may call it in the Netherlands desk of the Guardian.

I really hope this Colts vote will not pass at the AGM, but if it does, I'm perfectly happy to bypass the teams which voted it through when I choose where to spend my money next season.

That's my view. I don't have as many Champions League medals as Stevie G, nor the abdominal muscles of John Collins, but I'm not an absolute mug who will swallow any passing fad just because some business studies student put together a cute wee PDF which used the word "conservatively" injudiciously and quoted utterly irrelevant social media engagement statistics.

[Gordon EF]

15 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

"Potentially catastrophic"? No, that's mostly doom mongering 

Spanish football has not had a meltdown yet, has it? Pep Guardiola, I mean what does he know?

You're free to think it's doom mongering. Personally, I'm not totally sure I'd still take an interest in Scottish football if colt teams were in the SPFL. For me, it would essentially ruin it as a competition. That's not something you can deny. That is the way I and hundreds, if not thousands of other fans feel. Lose a significant portion of those supporters and lower league Scottish football as we know it is basically finished.

B teams have existed in Spanish football since before I was born. I have no idea how Spanish football supporters felt about it then and no idea how they feel about them now. It could well be that the situation there and how fans feel about their leagues and clubs is different. I can only comment on what the sentiment and potential consequences are here.

Scottish (and English) football is relatively rare in that it has relatively well-supported clubs and relatively thriving leagues right down to the levels. Since Croatia is mentioned so often, their second tier (this is clubs ranked 11th - 29th in their system) and where these B teams operate had an average attendance of just 486 in season 2018/19. And even then, only one club had an average attendance of over 500. No B team had an average attendance over 300.

That's less than League Two in Scotland. Pollock Juniors would be the 11th best supported club in the whole Croatian league if they were in it. Lower league football in Scotland is far stronger than in most European countries and far more people are invested in it. That makes a difference.

[cmontheloknow]

8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

One of the best academies in europe started a B team, along with others.  Presumably this idea was generated by Dutch people, from the Netherlands, who are responsible for the success of youth development in their country.

But instead of visiting those academies to learn best practice, speak to experts, and test ideas here in a pilot project, we'd save a lot of time and energy by following the advice of a Dutch football supporter on pie + bovril who says it's bad.

 

One of the most patronising posts on this forum.

[superbigal]

Do you think Steven Gerrard was reading off a script and being told what to say and think? Because his employer said so, and he'd better toe the line or else? 
I strongly suspect the man would still have a future at Rangers or elsewhere in the game if he disagreed with B teams concept. He's clearly very competent, and capable of forming his own informed opinion.

If we accept there is a place for Colts teams.(I don't).
Can you then accept they should be in the West of Scotland Football League and nowhere near the lowland league ?
In fact why would they not develop just as well playing Neilston and Cambuslang rather than Vale of Leithen and Edinburgh University ?

[newcastle broon]

On 11/05/2021 at 19:07, Marten said:

That means all the good guys are known now: Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Edinburgh Uni, CSS, Dalbeattie Star

Is former ref Andrew Waddell still on the committee at Edinburgh Uni? 

Was with Preston Athletic at the forefront of the LL when it was formed. 

Interesting the Uni voted NO and are one of the "good guys".

[Jacksgranda]

11 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Please see the filmed interviews on these links.

John Kennedy makes good points: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11781/12303668/john-kennedy-celtic-rangers-b-teams-can-stop-players-from-falling-through-the-net

and

So does Steven Gerrard: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11788/12303425/steven-gerrard-rangers-and-celtic-b-teams-a-big-plus-for-steve-clarkes-scotland-side

They both make good arguments from a position of having a sound knowledge of youth football and experience at elite level.

No they don't.

[Marten]

8 hours ago, Che Dail said:

One of the best academies in europe started a B team, along with others.  Presumably this idea was generated by Dutch people, from the Netherlands, who are responsible for the success of youth development in their country.

But instead of visiting those academies to learn best practice, speak to experts, and test ideas here in a pilot project, we'd save a lot of time and energy by following the advice of a Dutch football supporter on pie + bovril who says it's bad.

 

I've set out my detailed thoughts in a post here on P&B, which I re-posted a few days ago in this thread. Feel free to read it. Not a single supporter of colt teams actually came with arguments against points I raised in that post (or the previous times I posted that or something similar).

But what gets me the most is that supporters of colt teams in Scotland generally just claim it's a quick fix and the one thing that's needed to make sure development work. To put in a nutshell what I said previously: the Dutch youth system has a very good reputation but that's due to an extensive network of coaching, training, scouting and youth partnerships going all the way down to lower non-league. Big names like Robben and Van Nistelrooy came through the youth system of a small non-league club (roughly the standard of a lower EoSFL team) before eventually being picked up by professional clubs. They were able to go all the way to the top due to the structures there are in place. Out of the extensive Dutch youth system, the "colt team" system is arguably the least effective and most controversial part. .

That whole set up is much more advanced than what's in place in Scotland. Over here the system is fractured and there is much work to be done imo. If you really want to address youth development over here, a top-down overhaul of the system currently in place is needed. Yet other than colt teams, NONE of these issues get addressed or even talked about. Advocates of colt teams claim it's a quick fix, where in fact it doesn't do anything to address the actual issues. If colt teams are included as a part of a major overhaul of the entire youth system it would really be fair enough. I still wouldn't like the colt teams part of the plan but I could even potentially support the plan as a whole if I do feel it addresses the other issues. The fact that none of the actual development issues are even being talked about, shows that the OF don't really want this for the interest of Scottish football and player development.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Marten

[AlansHotBath]

8 hours ago, Le Tout P'ti FC said:

The standard of football was woeful, it made me feel quite at home actually. But the smaller stadium within De Toekomst which houses the Amateurs would at least manage to get a licence here and, Firhill besides, very few of our stadia have canals passing by the touchline.

Carmuirs Park? I can't comment on how Camelon compares to Amsterdam, mind you.

As you say, the quality at the LL is too low to sufficiently improve players who are supposed to be good enough to play for the OF first teams. As has been said many times on this thread, if you are playing against VoL every week at 21 you can still have a great career in the lower leagues, but you are, with the best will in the world, probably not going to make it as a Scotland international. 

The issue is that the LL is a stepping stone for them, they've no intention to have Colts kicking around here for any longer than necessary, with the ultimate goal being the SPFL (I mentioned earlier in the thread that George Fraser probably knows this and wanted cash for the LL before it happens anyway). The bottom rungs of the professional leagues are probably also not good enough to foster international-level players, but again the long term goal for the Colts will be to ditch the no-promotion clause and start moving up the leagues. That's why people are so opposed to this.

[TheScarf]

14 hours ago, dougster said:

Some interesting comments and some absolute pish too. On the Berwick fan Facebook page, we did a poll with the vast majority coming out against the Colts joining however the powers that be, with the organised Supporters groups, decided to go with the League proposal. There's good arguments for and against but some of the numpties on here calling for a boycott or petitions who have never been near a Lowland league game are just stirring the shite, and one or two of their own club's ownership has been questionable for years.  I'm not too enamoured with the decision myself, I know some Berwick fans are absolutely livid. Of course it's about money, every club will want the benefit and I bet you none of the five 'no' voters will turn down the extra money they receive.

So calm down Space Cadets and get your own houses in order first before you start throwing stones.

Fuck your cunt of a club mate.

[RiG]

12 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Please see the filmed interviews on these links.

John Kennedy makes good points: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11781/12303668/john-kennedy-celtic-rangers-b-teams-can-stop-players-from-falling-through-the-net

and

So does Steven Gerrard: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11788/12303425/steven-gerrard-rangers-and-celtic-b-teams-a-big-plus-for-steve-clarkes-scotland-side

They both make good arguments from a position of having a sound knowledge of youth football and experience at elite level.

You've basically just linked to a couple of interviews that confirm what most of us are already saying - this isn't about developing players to improve the national side it's to allow Rangers and Celtic to hoard young talent. They get stronger and the rest of Scottish football continues to fall even further behind them.

Get fucked.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, RiG said:

You've basically just linked to a couple of interviews that confirm what most of us are already saying - this isn't about developing players to improve the national side it's to allow Rangers and Celtic to hoard young talent. They get stronger and the rest of Scottish football continues to fall even further behind them.

Get fucked.

Heres another one, Pep Guardiola:

https://thefootballfaithful.com/guardiola-man-city-news-premier-league-b-team/

[FairWeatherFan]

Helpfully some of the Rangers wiki pages breakdown their seasonal transfer signings into 1st teams and Academy categories.

For the benefit of Scottish National Team believers:

 

2020-21

2016-17

2015-16

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[PB1994]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

I've set out my detailed thoughts in a post here on P&B, which I re-posted a few days ago in this thread. Feel free to read it. Not a single supporter of colt teams actually came with arguments against points I raised in that post (or the previous times I posted that or something similar).

But what gets me the most is that supporters of colt teams in Scotland generally just claim it's a quick fix and the one thing that's needed to make sure development work. To put in a nutshell what I said previously: the Dutch youth system has a very good reputation but that's due to an extensive network of coaching, training, scouting and youth partnerships going all the way down to lower non-league. Big names like Robben and Van Nistelrooy came through the youth system of a small non-league club (roughly the standard of a lower EoSFL team) before eventually being picked up by professional clubs. They were able to go all the way to the top due to the structures there are in place. Out of the extensive Dutch youth system, the "colt team" system is arguably the least effective and most controversial part. .

That whole set up is much more advanced than what's in place in Scotland. Over here the system is fractured and there is much work to be done imo. If you really want to address youth development over here, a top-down overhaul of the system currently in place is needed. Yet other than colt teams, NONE of these issues get addressed or even talked about. Advocates of colt teams claim it's a quick fix, where in fact it doesn't do anything to address the actual issues. If colt teams are included as a part of a major overhaul of the entire youth system it would really be fair enough. I still wouldn't like the colt teams part of the plan but I could even potentially support the plan as a whole if I do feel it addresses the other issues. The fact that none of the actual development issues are even being talked about, shows that the OF don't really want this for the interest of Scottish football and player development.

Yeah but Pep and Stevie...

[Che Dail]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

One of the most patronising posts on this forum.

Sorry you think that, but it was in response to a patronising post.

Because Marten is from the Netherlands, we should take his opinionated  word as gospel on Dutch football.

Over people like, for example, Johan Cruyff and Pep Guardiola. If it was such a bad idea they'd have stripped it from Barcelona.

 

[Che Dail]

Just now, PB1994 said:

Yeah but Pep and Stevie...

Yeah, like "what have the Romans ever done for us?"

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Heres another one, Pep Guardiola:

https://thefootballfaithful.com/guardiola-man-city-news-premier-league-b-team/

Pal... the reason he wants B teams is right there in the first paragraph...

Quote

Pep Guardiola has once again called for the Premier League to introduce B-teams in the lower leagues of English football after Man City lost another talented youth product.

He wants them so he can hoard young players on the off chance they become good, not develop them.

B teams are 100% about benefitting the club who has them, not anyone or anything else. Manchester City and Pep Guardiola do not give a shit about the English national team. The OF and Steven Gerrard do not give a shit about the Scottish national team. When have these clubs ever done anything to the benefit of their national team or their national leagues when it wasn't explicitly to their benefit? Start giving examples of this and maybe folk will take anything you're saying seriously.

[oneteaminglasgow]

11 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Heres another one, Pep Guardiola:

https://thefootballfaithful.com/guardiola-man-city-news-premier-league-b-team/

Yes, because it would make it easier for Man City to hoard good young players. It’s an especially bad example given that Jadon Sancho was playing in the Bundesliga every week after leaving, rather than League Two or wherever Man City’s B team would be - is that better for the England national team? 

You’re either unable to read or at it, but in any case let’s have a look at a case study of a current Scotland international - Stephen O’Donnell. He was released by Celtic at 19 years old, having previously played for Aberdeen youths and at that point had no senior appearances. He then went on to play 60 First Division games over the next 2 seasons for Thistle, winning promotion to the premiership in the process by 21.

So, how much better a player would he be if he’d just stayed at Celtic and played 60 odd Lowland league games instead?

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by oneteaminglasgow

[Dons_1988]

This Che Dail doesn't seem like a serious customer, to be honest.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Sorry you think that, but it was in response to a patronising post.

Because Marten is from the Netherlands, we should take his opinionated  word as gospel on Dutch football.

Over people like, for example, Johan Cruyff and Pep Guardiola. If it was such a bad idea they'd have stripped it from Barcelona.

Probably because all of these people exist in the absolute elite of the game. Who's approach is to hoard players and use their financial advantage to sign young players at a pittance from all over the world hoping they become a superstar.

It is incredibly rare for a player coming through to have played at a single club through all the age groups. The closer they get to professional age the more often they get cherry picked by a bigger club who can then claim credit for the finishing touches or bin on the cheap if they don't work out.

Look at Islam Feruz vs. Billy Gilmour.