Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Marten]

Just now, Che Dail said:

Opinion is free - every club got a vote - there's no right or wrong.

There is, this decision is wrong, not right, fact.

[Che Dail]

Just now, Marten said:

There is, this decision is wrong, not right, fact.

No, that's your opinion 

[Kennie]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Opinion is free - every club got a vote - there's no right or wrong.

So why use SG's opinion then?

 

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, ahemps said:

All his success was down to his experience gained at Liverpool B

Alternatively:  it was down to his  intelligence, leadership, determination, influence...

[evh78]

Dalbeattie releasing a statement tonight of how they voted.

https://www.pitchero.com/clubs/dalbeattiestarfc/news/statement-2615723.html

[Kennie]

Just now, Che Dail said:

Alternatively:  it was down to his  intelligence, leadership, determination, influence...

No guesses now required for who 'Other' is for Che Dail's 'My Team'

[ahemps]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Alternatively:  it was down to his  intelligence, leadership, determination, influence...

My brother works in Holland and has discussed the B teams with his friend who supports Feyenoord. It has not been a success there and has greatly diminished their 2nd tier

Again the old firm are not going to our 2nd tier to develop at that level, they are going to the 5th tier of Scottish football. What is the standard of 5th tier Scottish football? If you are 20-23 and at that level then the chances of you ever playing international level in your career must be extreme.

Edited May 11, 2021 by ahemps

[Footballfirst]

Braves statement

https://www.caledonianbraves.com/news/a-message-from-the-chairman-on-colts-teams-in-the-lowland-league

Quote

Last night I had the privilege of representing our club at the Lowland League meeting to discuss the potential entry of Rangers and Celtic B teams in the league for next season. All seventeen Lowland League clubs were represented along with Stewart Robertson and Craig Mullholland of Rangers and Chris McCart of Celtic. 

For over two hours we debated the pros and cons of the proposal, with both Rangers and Celtic being afforded the opportunity to explain their desire to join the league and how it would help with the development of their young players playing weekly in a competitive environment. 

As the discussions drew to a close and we were asked to vote on the proposal, I wrote YES and sent it to league secretary David Baxter.  

I voted on behalf of the 68% of fans who voted yes to the proposal via our app at the weekend and along with 10 fellow member clubs, the vote passed 11-5 (with one abstention).

Proud to have carried out the will of the vast majority of fans, it was also a vote which I agreed with personally. 

Of course anything relating to Rangers and Celtic has a tendency to polarise opinion in Scotland, though my thoughts are that it can only be positive for the league and our club. It affords the league commercial opportunity and as well as raising the profile of our league internationally, it will also help the clubs financially - much needed on the back of the coronavirus pandemic. 

To suggest however that this decision was made purely for financial reasons, at least in our case, could not be further from the truth. Realistically the commercial incentive is helpful, though will change very little in the grand scheme of things.

For me, the accusation that the vote raises concerns over sporting integrity, is a non-starter. The proposal is for one year only and there are guarantees that neither Rangers or Celtic will be promoted or relegated. Promotion and relegation will remain open to all other clubs within the pyramid and the fact that no champion was declared in Tier 6 this year underlines the fact that Rangers and Celtic’s inclusion into the Lowland League is in no way detrimental to any specific team in Tier 6, therefore ensuring as a result, that sporting integrity is intact. 

As the first club in the history of Scottish football to be promoted from the bottom tier of the pyramid after being refused SFA membership and Lowland League membership through application (twice) we would never endorse a proposal that directly and unjustly disadvantaged another club. 

For me, this is about football. It’s about player development and offering an opportunity of a fresh and exciting approach. For years I have read that Scottish football requires change. I have read about league reconstruction, hidden agendas and suspicion and seen a growing apathy towards the sport we love year after year. 

If this proposal can act as a catalyst for genuine debate, where two of our country’s top clubs feel it necessary to join another league to help develop their players, then surely this is a good thing?  If we see more interest in local clubs, increased attendances and a more attractive, exciting product, then surely this can only be good. 

At the end of the day, it’s a one year proposal with very little risk.  Time will tell if it is to be successful.

I hope over time, those who oppose it will begin to understand  that the clubs who voted for it, did so with good intentions, 

There was no agenda or sell out - it is simply an opportunity for growth and for change.

Chris Ewing

 

[Marten]

3 minutes ago, ahemps said:

My brother works in Holland and has discussed the B teams with his friend who supports Feyenoord. It has not been a success there and has greatly diminished their 2nd tier

Again the old firm are not going to our 2nd tier to develop at that level, they are going to the 5th tier of Scottish football. What is the standard of 5th tier Scottish football? If you are 20-23 and at that level then the chances of you ever playing international level in your career must be extreme.

Absolutely, it's been awful over there.

[PB1994]

If you are between the ages of 18-21 and are playing in the Lowland League for Celtic or Rangers Colts I’d say the chance of you ever making it to top level football is almost 0.

There are the odd exceptions but at the level of quality in Scotland, you really should be already playing in the Championship/Premiership regularly at 18-21 if you are going to have a genuine chance of being a Scotland International or getting a move onto a big team in a big league.

[Stewie Griffin]

There's going to be some moaning when a key player suffers a serious injury against the Colts teams and is ruled out for a large chunk of the season. So even if the points don't count there's still huge potential for the games to have a major impact on the season. 

Still, it will all be worth it when we win the World Cup thanks to the experience some 18 year old had at Innerleithen one January day pumping a team that conceded on average eight goals a game.

[Benidorm]

The whole essence is wrong. With the Challenge Cup on one hand you have legitimiate clubs who treat these competitions seriously and want to win (which rules out about 3/4 of the LL) and progress (including most of the non Scottish teams who IMO have added to the tournament), versus colt teams who treat these ties like a glorified training exercise, playing their home matches miles away at places like Stirling and Greenock, utilising 24 year old "mentors" who assault and spit on other players when they realise after barely a couple of games against mediocre part time League 1 or 2 sides that most of these kids aren't going to morph into the superstars that clowns John Collins will tell you.

[G51]

The debate about the Croatian B teams just kind of sums this whole thing up. Croatian B teams haven't been playing in their leagues long enough to make a substantial difference to their national team. So claiming "Only 1 Croatian player in their WC18 squad ever played for a B team" and "B teams are why the Croation national team are so successful" are two opposing sides of the same shit argument. Both sides are trying to express their support/opposition on the basis of developing young talent, when most of the reasons for their support/opposition isn't rooted in that. The truth is, none of us really know the best approach for developing young players, because there is no definitive answer on that at the moment.

This really boils down to a couple of questions: 1) What do we want to prioritise in Scottish football? What is most important to us? and 2) What is the most efficient and effective way to develop young footballers? Do B teams have a role to play in that?

With regards to 1), I've said it a few times on here that Scottish football supporters really suffer from a lack of organisation. Never has this been more apparent than this season, when the SFA/SPFL/JRG/ScotGov have treated us like total morons and kept us out of football stadia for far longer than is necessary. We have enormous power to change the game, and we don't come anywhere close to utilising that.

But lets say we did form an organisation, say some kind of federation or congress of the supporters trusts. The absolute first thing we'd have to work out is what are our priorities? Because there's a chance that protecting the integrity of lower division clubs/competitions and developing young players to improve the national team become two contradictory aims. Your view on what the most important thing is in Scottish football - the national teams performance, success in European football, protecting the smaller teams, getting fans more of a say in what goes on, etc. - likely determines your view on whether B teams are a good idea regardless of the evidence in front of you. Right now, there isn't really any evidence either way, which allows people to simply draw lazy parallels to other leagues and say "They do X, so should we".

Which brings me on to 2), which is - why do we not have a consensus view on what the best way to develop youth players is? Well, part of that is there might not be one true way - there's likely different approaches that suit different sizes of clubs. Maybe it's the case that for Rangers and Celtic, B teams are the most effective way for doing that because they can afford to simply implement a professional structure around a B team. For Hibs/Hearts/Aberdeen, maybe strategic partnerships work better because B teams are too expensive, while for St Johnstone, Dundee Utd etc. the best thing to do is to stick them into the first team,because it's a significantly less pressurised environment and they're afforded the room to develop.

But the other reason we don't have a consensus view is because we haven't tried to develop one. What's stopping the SFA from hiring a company of data analysts and telling them to figure out what the best way to develop young players are? If we really want to figure this out, shouldn't we... try to figure it out?

[stm]

Utter pish from the Braves spokesman in terms of integrity.  At its core the principle and value (hence integrity) of a pyramid system has teams moving up or down based on sporting merit.  Two places in this division are now based on invitation and commercial gains.

If either of the two Colts finish bottom they can't be relegated.  What if they wish to carry on into another year?

We're back with our wonderkids because that final placing was just part of a pilot scheme where we were just having a kickabout all year.  Sorry club X went down instead.  Let's start again, here's another £25k.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hillonearth]

21 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Braves statement

https://www.caledonianbraves.com/news/a-message-from-the-chairman-on-colts-teams-in-the-lowland-league

 

[Forest_Fifer]

Wankegory, Shirley?

Cuntegory?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Everyone with sense in Scottish Football- allowing the OF to buy into the league for their youth teams undermines the integrity of the pyramid and damages the reputation of the Lowland League to a massive degree. Its universally opposed by fans and clubs alike and is unfair to clubs who’ve spent fortunes to get licences in tier 6.

George Fraser and the Lowland League- 

 

[BS7]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

That 1 year thing is just hilarious. The OF know that's a load of bullshit but it's questionable whether the LL clubs actually believe that or if they're just as complicit in kidding fans on that it's only for a year. Either way they look like fucking mugs and I hope every last club that voted for this ends up down the fucking pan. 

My problem is I think much of the SPFL clubs will just sit back quietly and say f**k all. This project will go ahead and in 6 months we'll start to hear all the reasons why it should be extended and opened up to League 2 etc. I don't have any faith that a club will step up and look to do anything about it before that point.

 

Come a years time, and its another vote whether to keep the old firm colts and go to 16 teams, I think there will be considerable squealing from those extra clubs relegated.

[RossBFaeDundee]

3 minutes ago, BS7 said:

Come a years time, and its another vote whether to keep the old firm colts and go to 16 teams, I think there will be considerable squealing from those extra clubs relegated.

I think you'll find they'll be banging on the door to the SPFL once again next season, and when they fail again they'll give the sycophants another £3k (hopefully even less though) for another year before trying the SPFL once again.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, A Believer said:

It's well documented that intra age group is not the best environment to prepare players for senior football, (
Clearly the theory here is consistent coaching of a group, rather than splintered into disparate loan environments, in a new testing senior player environment.

It's a 1 year test from which their sports scientists will derive a ton of data to either prove or disprove it's success. Worth a go?

With all those other leagues around the world that already do it. I would have thought there was conclusive data already?

Yet its not universally supported.