Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Gordon EF]

On existing reserve sides. They're a little bit of a historical anomaly. They were all in separate leagues from their 'big' team when those leagues were integrated into the pyramid. As far as I know, no new reserve or youth teams have been allowed in since the pyramid has been created. I'm not in favour of reserve or youth teams in the league system at all. One club, one team should be the principle. But they're a little bit like the SoSFL at tier 6. Nobody would design it that way but it's a quirk of the system as it was put together.

On the George Fraser point and whether he's given an easy ride or not, I haven't listened to the latest catchup but plan to. From the POV of an interested outsider, George Fraser seems to have done an excellent job up until this point. As much as anyone, he seems to have been the driving force behind the creation and integration of the pyramid and he'd obviously done great work at BSC. It's natural that LL supporters, not just if BSC, have a high opinion of the guy and are probably willing to 'side' with him to a greater extent than SPFL or ex-junior supporters on this, who've probably already suspected there's a bit of hypocrisy going around regarding promotion/relegation during the curtailed season and are getting a bit tired of the "we're the good guys and the SPFL are the bad guys" schtick. So I'd suspect supporters of this idea or those who're neutral fall into one of three camps - 1) OF fans with a 'wee' team who see it as good for the OF and therefore support it, 2) those who do have concerns about it but are essentially 'siding' with Fraser and the LL, as they see it, 3) those who genuinely buy the BS about the benefits of this and are popping a wee stauner about their club playing school boy teams wearing OF kits.

As for SPFL fans or those fans of teams below the LL, of course it's valid for them to have and voice opinions. Because it could directly affect them in the future. But it's also pretty stupid to think the LL shouldn't be listening to those opinions. There seems to be this idea that introducing colts will lead to an increased possibility of promotion/relegation between tiers 5 and 4. If the SPFL clubs and their fans are almost unanimously against this proposal then that is down the pan. We've spent years fending off this shite and clubs will not be happy about potentially dropping down into a league who dropped their knickers for the OF at the first sign of attention. The LL has generally held a very good reputation amongst SPFL supporters as a league body. Trashing that for a few grand seems like a monumentally stupid thing to do.

[Born To Run]

17 minutes ago, beano said:

starting to bore of seeing that balloon headed gamer moron think hes the gatekeeper to all things non league scottish football over on twitter. fat w**k

What a pleasant individual you are. 

“Gatekeeper to all things non-league” is a new one to add to the list. Cheers for that.

EDIT: On a serious note, the mute function on Twitter is great - I use it a lot. If you’re fed up of me, that’s the best way to avoid my tweets.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Born To Run

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

On existing reserve sides. They're a little bit of a historical anomaly. They were all in separate leagues from their 'big' team when those leagues were integrated into the pyramid. As far as I know, no new reserve or youth teams have been allowed in since the pyramid has been created. I'm not in favour of reserve or youth teams in the league system at all. One club, one team should be the principle. But they're a little bit like the SoSFL at tier 6. Nobody would design it that way but it's a quirk of the system as it was put together.

Stirling University EoS are the only historical one left. When the Lowland League started they never resigned their membership. If the Stirling University LL teams were relegated, the EoS side would fold.

Stranraer and Annan Athletic joined the SoSFL again in 2017-18 with Annan later folding. The close season Annan folded was the year Caledonian Braves would get their reserve side in.

ICT were rejected by the Highland League, Selkirk failed to win enough votes in 2014. No one knows what would have happened with Edinburgh City.

[Gordon EF]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Stirling University EoS are the only historical one left. When the Lowland League started they never resigned their membership. If the Stirling University LL teams were relegated, the EoS side would fold.

Stranraer and Annan Athletic joined the SoSFL again in 2017-18 with Annan later folding. The close season Annan folded was the year Caledonian Braves would get their reserve side in.

ICT were rejected by the Highland League, Selkirk failed to win enough votes in 2014. No one knows what would have happened with Edinburgh City.

Fair enough. I don't think existing reserve teams is some kind of argument for OF colts or against anyone arguing against them. Most people on here don't think reserve side should be in the league system at all, whether it's the OF or Stranraer.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Fair enough. I don't think existing reserve teams is some kind of argument for OF colts or against anyone arguing against them. Most people on here don't think reserve side should be in the league system at all, whether it's the OF or Stranraer.

The existing reserve sides also serve different purposes and aren't there to climb the pyramid. Not that they can beyond Tier 6 anyway. 

Stranraer are w there for their local youths. It wasn't until this season there existed a LL Development League West. Otherwise it was the national SPFL reserves or LL Development dominated by East teams. 

Caley Braves prop up Edusport Academy and the same is basically true for Stirling with their sports programme. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

31 minutes ago, Ironside8 said:

Where did he appear from? Behind his pc desk to become to oracle of non league football it's laughable yet never hear from any proper non league fans junior or ex junior. He , his 'club ' his 'chairman' are one big bad joke played on scottish football at this level.

I know I'll regret this...

The big problem is that logic dictates a p yramid structure for football divisions and leagues.

I appreciated what made the juniors special, unfortunately there was no-one on that side that could articulate a persuasive argument either to stay separate or demonstrate the governance skills to run a new organisation.

[Burnieman]

I know I'll regret this...
The big problem is that logic dictates a p yramid structure for football divisions and leagues.
I appreciated what made the juniors special, unfortunately there was no-one on that side that could articulate a persuasive argument either to stay separate or demonstrate the governance skills to run a new organisation.

Remember Isabel Goudie our old Talbot chum losing his marbles, getting banned, re-registering two or three times to promote a breakaway Joonyur forum and twitter account. Is any of that still on the go? Is Gassy actually Isa?

[Marten]

2 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Fair enough. I don't think existing reserve teams is some kind of argument for OF colts or against anyone arguing against them. Most people on here don't think reserve side should be in the league system at all, whether it's the OF or Stranraer.

I'm against any club having 2 sides in the pyramid, but if, a big IF, such a side joins it has to be at the lowest level for that region, like all 3 existing reserve sides are in the lowest level for their region. So the debate on whether or not the OF colts should join the pyramid should be about them joining the WoSFL conferences and thus voted on by WoSFL clubs. Even discussing them joining the LL is already a disgrace. The "plan" is too deluded to even be taken seriously as well. Games on mainstream channels? And what about the statement of 500 fans at games being a conservative estimate? Come on, would 500 OF fans make the journey to Innerleithen to see their colts play VoL? I'd even be surprised if they take 50!

[Gordon EF]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

I'm against any club having 2 sides in the pyramid, but if, a big IF, such a side joins it has to be at the lowest level for that region, like all 3 existing reserve sides are in the lowest level for their region. So the debate on whether or not the OF colts should join the pyramid should be about them joining the WoSFL conferences and thus voted on by WoSFL clubs. Even discussing them joining the LL is already a disgrace. The "plan" is too deluded to even be taken seriously as well. Games on mainstream channels? And what about the statement of 500 fans at games being a conservative estimate? Come on, would 500 OF fans make the journey to Innerleithen to see their colts play VoL? I'd even be surprised if they take 50!

Exactly. OF colts have every right to apply for the lowest level of the pyramid in their part of the country and they should be bound by the exact same rules as every other club. A fundamental principle of the pyramid should be no jumping the queue and also, it shouldn't need to be said, but no league should be used as a glorified training exercise.

If clubs like BSC and Caledonian Braves support this, they're, unfortunately, living up to all the criticism of them that's been put about for the past few years.

[FairWeatherFan]

Fortunately the meeting is tomorrow. So either it's done* or the backlash will really begin.

*It's not done either way as the OF are trying to get Colt teams into the SPFL for 2022-23 and the whole Lowland League pilot is just a stop gap from getting their main goal.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Fortunately the meeting is tomorrow. So either it's done* or the backlash will really begin.

*It's not done either way as the OF are trying to get Colt teams into the SPFL for 2022-23 and the whole Lowland League pilot is just a stop gap from getting their main goal.

Is it really worth tarnishing the brand for such a cheap price to keep them out the rain until they move on?

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Is it really worth tarnishing the brand for such a cheap price to keep them out the rain until they move on?

I can see why the OF want to do it. They'll be able to rack up scorelines against the majority of teams. Then they get to turn around and say "see we need to be in the SPFL".

The part of that I don't get is why the LL thinks that will improve their brand in any way. They've already considered the possibility that one of the OF Colts win the league and they see that as an acceptable part of this proposal.

 

[Marshmallo]

30 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I know I'll regret this...
The big problem is that logic dictates a p yramid structure for football divisions and leagues.
I appreciated what made the juniors special, unfortunately there was no-one on that side that could articulate a persuasive argument either to stay separate or demonstrate the governance skills to run a new organisation.

Remember Isabel Goudie our old Talbot chum losing his marbles, getting banned, re-registering two or three times to promote a breakaway Joonyur forum and twitter account. Is any of that still on the go? Is Gassy actually Isa?

Who cares? 

[Crow]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I can see why the OF want to do it. They'll be able to rack up scorelines against the majority of teams. Then they get to turn around and say "see we need to be in the SPFL".

The part of that I don't get is why the LL thinks that will improve their brand in any way. They've already considered the possibility that one of the OF Colts win the league and they see that as an acceptable part of this proposal.

They will rack up score-lines against the Vale but would expect Rangers / Celtic B to finish somewhere mid table. 

An extra 50 / 100 fans on the gate / hospitality + match sponsors etc not to be sniffed at. 

[AlansHotBath]

Just got round to listening to the Catch-up interview. Thought the hosts did softball Fraser I'm not really sure what people expected, if you are not a professional journalist (which afaik none of them are) it's far easier to come across as a raging prat than a forceful interviewer who can get decent answers. There was a lot of dismissal of concerns at the end which was disappointing.  

Anyway, nothing really new that hadn't been churned over on here, and it didn't change my opinion at all. I do somewhat understand his position - he probably knows more than anyone on here about how likely it is that we'll see Colts in the SPFL in the next few years, and so he's trying to grab a bit of cash beforehand. I think Fraser is genuine in trying to improve the League and raise its profile, and thinks that having Colt teams is a quick way to do it, but I think he's also chuffed about having people from big clubs talk to him and read his emails (like getting assurances from the OF that there will be 2 officials from the clubs at each game - who in their right mind would care aside from the LL board members who want to feel like big deals rubbing shoulders with someone in a Celtic or Rangers tie, give me a break). 

Having mulled it over for a few days, there really isn't a situation where I or a significant number of fans (aside from those who've decided their club is 'innovative' or 'modernising' and that anything they do is therefore worthwhile) will be in favour of this, but I think it will happen. Clubs will want the entry money, the potential of extra fans through the gate, and as I said above I think Fraser will get across the idea that it will be for a year, not because Colts will play here for a bit and then just go back to a reserve league, but because they are moving further up the pyramid. 

 

[superbigal]

Could the likes of Darvel not now just offer the lowland league £30,000 for a spot if they wanted?
Surely that would be laughed out ?
No probably not eh George ?
Maybe Aberdeen colts ?
Boundary, what Boundary ?

[Burnieman]

Couldn't believe what i heard from a normally reliable individual earlier that another top flight team are putting forward a cash for tier five status this week coming.

The floodgates have well and truly opened.

I couldn't believe it either [emoji1787]

[GNU_Linux]

See if Cumbernauld Colts ever added a colts team to the WOSL would they be called Cumbernauld Colts Colts or would it be Cumbernauld Colts²

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Crow said:

They will rack up score-lines against the Vale but would expect Rangers / Celtic B to finish somewhere mid table. 

An extra 50 / 100 fans on the gate / hospitality + match sponsors etc not to be sniffed at. 

VoL, Edinburgh University, Dalbeattie Star, Gretna 2008, Gala FR, and some of the other regulars around the middle can take some heavy defeats across a season. OF 'B' are going to be full time youth sides going up against part-timers. Some of the better teams are in transition phases with old hands retiring and managerial changes so bit of an unknown.

Not expecting the OF to run away with it by any means, but both top half and one close enough to have a title challenge talked about most of the season.

[parsforlife]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

VoL, Edinburgh University, Dalbeattie Star, Gretna 2008, Gala FR, and some of the other regulars around the middle can take some heavy defeats across a season. OF 'B' are going to be full time youth sides going up against part-timers. Some of the better teams are in transition phases with old hands retiring and managerial changes so bit of an unknown.

Not expecting the OF to run away with it by any means, but both top half and one close enough to have a title challenge talked about most of the season.

Full time youths they might be, but a good chunk of them will be playing at this level in 5 years time,  the majority aren’t special.