Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Cannibal]

On 01/04/2022 at 00:14, Robert James said:

I am NOT in favour of B teams being given preferential (promotion) treatment over pyramid clubs, and I don't buy the view that there is a correlation  between Celtic & Rangers B-teams, and the national team. A more effective loan system between Premiership and SPFL clubs, would be a better development opportunity for talented players, IMO. It seems to work very well in the EFL.

However, the more important change in the current Scottish Pyramid, must be promotion to, and relegation from, SPF League Two. Scotland now has an inclusive system for no-league clubs, which makes it timely to further open up the system. 

As I have said before, Club 42 should be relegated automatically, and replaced by the winners of the Highland/Lowland Play Off.  In addition, Cub 41 should face the losers of the HFL/SLL, in a play-of, with the winning club retaining or gaining League Two status..

This is particularly essential now, with the West of Scotland champions adding strength & quality to the Lowland League, with only a  'drip feed'  of one club per season having the chance of promotion.  SPFL clubs, when relegated, will find it increasingly difficult to return to league status, especially because the trap door is to small  to climb back through. Ask East Stirlingshire or Berwick Rangers for their views. Also, Brechin City have performed well in the Highland League, but they won't be HFL champions at the end of this season.

I am sure we agree on where we would all like to be but there's absolutely no reason why it is "essential" that an extra team in League Two should drop into a league half made up of dross that are voting against plans to let better teams get promoted into it. 

in the last couple of years we've had a highland league team getting in a promotion play-off having played three league games and a lowland league team twice refusing more promotion into it whilst making space for old firm B teams.  The essential thing is for the leagues outside the SPFL to ensure they are as competitive as possible to prove they actually produce the next best teams in the country and make the prospect of dropping into it less disastrous.

[Pyramid Watcher]

8 minutes ago, Cannibal said:

I am sure we agree on where we would all like to be but there's absolutely no reason why it is "essential" that an extra team in League Two should drop into a league half made up of dross that are voting against plans to let better teams get promoted into it. 

in the last couple of years we've had a highland league team getting in a promotion play-off having played three league games and a lowland league team twice refusing more promotion into it whilst making space for old firm B teams.  The essential thing is for the leagues outside the SPFL to ensure they are as competitive as possible to prove they actually produce the next best teams in the country and make the prospect of dropping into it less disastrous.

“Dross”, that’s good coming from a Clyde fan.

[Dev]

3 hours ago, Cannibal said:

I am sure we agree on where we would all like to be but there's absolutely no reason why it is "essential" that an extra team in League Two should drop into a league half made up of dross that are voting against plans to let better teams get promoted into it. 

in the last couple of years we've had a highland league team getting in a promotion play-off having played three league games and a lowland league team twice refusing more promotion into it whilst making space for old firm B teams.  The essential thing is for the leagues outside the SPFL to ensure they are as competitive as possible to prove they actually produce the next best teams in the country and make the prospect of dropping into it less disastrous.

This does not even apply to the Highland League so why penalise those clubs? The SPFL2 doesn't ONLY have relegation to the Lowland League you know! 

Are you suggesting that because many strong ex Junior clubs aren't yet in the Lowland League then it's OK for the likes of Brechin City to have to face, firstly, a play-off with the Lowland League's Champions before then needing to play-off again against the poorest club in SPFL2 in order to regain their place in SPFL2? That is, of course, if they, as an example of relegated SPFL2 clubs, are even strong enough to win one of the two Tier 5 Feeder leagues. East Stirling, Berwick Rangers and, now, probably Brechin City haven't shown that they can make the return to SPFL2. How many more weak SPFL2 clubs does it take to be relegated before the penny drops?

Blocking fair promotion and relegation between Tier 4 and 5 is just a half-baked attempt at blocking natural promotion and relegation within the Pyramid. Dump the excuses and get on with it.

 

[Cannibal]

14 hours ago, Dev said:

This does not even apply to the Highland League so why penalise those clubs? The SPFL2 doesn't ONLY have relegation to the Lowland League you know! 

Are you suggesting that because many strong ex Junior clubs aren't yet in the Lowland League then it's OK for the likes of Brechin City to have to face, firstly, a play-off with the Lowland League's Champions before then needing to play-off again against the poorest club in SPFL2 in order to regain their place in SPFL2? That is, of course, if they, as an example of relegated SPFL2 clubs, are even strong enough to win one of the two Tier 5 Feeder leagues. East Stirling, Berwick Rangers and, now, probably Brechin City haven't shown that they can make the return to SPFL2. How many more weak SPFL2 clubs does it take to be relegated before the penny drops?

Blocking fair promotion and relegation between Tier 4 and 5 is just a half-baked attempt at blocking natural promotion and relegation within the Pyramid. Dump the excuses and get on with it.

 

I am suggesting that, yes.  Blocking fair promotion into Tier 5 should be sorted if Tier 5 wants more upwards promotion.  This seems reasonable to me.

Fairness will only be achieved when we have a system that guarantees teams find their level not one that is tweaked now and again to increase the chances of promotion for whatever team happens to be getting bankrolled to a league title in a season, or gifts a playoff to team that has played three games.

[Bazil85]

On 02/04/2022 at 19:16, rockson said:

Scotland is a major football nation?

Absolutely not but that's the argument when talking about Colts in Spain, Netherlands, etc 

[Bazil85]

On 01/04/2022 at 12:24, DiegoDiego said:

 

Italy only has Juventus Colts.

Every day is a school day. 

[Bazil85]

On 01/04/2022 at 16:12, Burnieman said:

I'm giving you an indication of what would likely happen should B teams apply to join leagues and tick all the boxes for membership like any other prospective new applicant.

I don't really care about player development or where B teams could end up, I'm just outlining some facts.

They can't tick all the boxes though because by the rules of the league, Colts aren't allowed in the professional league structure. The same glass ceiling would still exist below the professional game as there is now. 

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

They can't tick all the boxes though because by the rules of the league, Colts aren't allowed in the professional league structure. The same glass ceiling would still exist below the professional game as there is now. 

But they're allowed into any of the Pyramid leagues if they tick the boxes for membership and the member clubs vote for it. That's the only point I'm making.

[Bazil85]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

But they're allowed into any of the Pyramid leagues if they tick the boxes for membership and the member clubs vote for it. That's the only point I'm making.

That goes for any change in Scottish football, just takes the members to vote it through. 

Your point was "likely" to happen. It isn't "likely" at all to happen given it has been rejected around a dozen times in 25 years. For it to happen, 11 Scottish Premier clubs would have to vote yes on the changes and 75% of the remaining member clubs. Given fan ownership in the top division and the negativity to the previous proposals from fan, it isn't close to likely they would get 11 votes to trigger the rule changes needed. 

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Bazil85 said:

That goes for any change in Scottish football, just takes the members to vote it through. 

Your point was "likely" to happen. It isn't "likely" at all to happen given it has been rejected around a dozen times in 25 years. For it to happen, 11 Scottish Premier clubs would have to vote yes on the changes and 75% of the remaining member clubs. Given fan ownership in the top division and the negativity to the previous proposals from fan, it isn't close to likely they would get 11 votes to trigger the rule changes needed. 

I'm at a loss as to what point you're trying to make here.  I'm not talking about the SPFL.

I'll make it easy.  If Hearts B or Hibs B or Edinburgh City B or Livingston B applied to join the EoSFL and they met all membership requirements, they would almost certainly be accepted and start in the bottom division.  There is no EoSFL rule barring B/reserve teams from membership.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

There is no EoSFL rule barring B/reserve teams from membership.

That depends. Does the rule of one team in the league still apply? Since it has always been said that Stirling Uni would have to fold their 2nd XI if relegated from the Lowland League.

[Burnieman]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That depends. Does the rule of one team in the league still apply? Since it has always been said that Stirling Uni would have to fold their 2nd XI if relegated from the Lowland League.

It probably does, or they cannot be in the same division.  However that wouldn't affect any SPFL teams looking to field a B team.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

It probably does, or they cannot be in the same division.  However that wouldn't affect any SPFL teams looking to field a B team.

Edinburgh City might not be in the SPFL forever.

[Burnieman]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Edinburgh City might not be in the SPFL forever.

They'd need to experience a dramatic fall to reach the EoS again, so not really an issue short term.  I think their U20's applied at the start of this season but were rejected as they didn't have the required facilities.

[Bazil85]

2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

I'm at a loss as to what point you're trying to make here.  I'm not talking about the SPFL.

I'll make it easy.  If Hearts B or Hibs B or Edinburgh City B or Livingston B applied to join the EoSFL and they met all membership requirements, they would almost certainly be accepted and start in the bottom division.  There is no EoSFL rule barring B/reserve teams from membership.

With all this Rangers/Celtic B hoo ha, what's been lost is that most clubs wouldn't have an issue with them being in the Pyramid, just not parachuted into tier 5, they should start at the bottom like any new member.

I think most fans and clubs would still have massive issues with them being in the pyramid at senior level, regardless of them getting there via promotion or not. It still offers them a significant advantage over other clubs (like they need it) and devalues the competitions. Fans of the impacted clubs don't generally want the association with Celtic and Rangers because of the bigotry either. 

I mean that's fine but my original point to you was pretty clear on having them in the "pyramid at Senior level" I have reiterated it several times since. 

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

They'd need to experience a dramatic fall to reach the EoS again, so not really an issue short term.  I think their U20's applied at the start of this season but were rejected as they didn't have the required facilities.

Still on the cards. Something to think about.

In the same way there are consequences to simply a yes/no on a 2nd XI team with adequate facilities. I don't think there are any squad restrictions on a 2nd XI they're treated like any other club. They also get to compete in the League Cup and King Cup. Kept out of the Alex Jack since they're SFA members and the Qualifying Cup because SPFL wise they'd have entry into the City Cup already.

[Burnieman]

35 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

With all this Rangers/Celtic B hoo ha, what's been lost is that most clubs wouldn't have an issue with them being in the Pyramid, just not parachuted into tier 5, they should start at the bottom like any new member.

I think most fans and clubs would still have massive issues with them being in the pyramid at senior level, regardless of them getting there via promotion or not. It still offers them a significant advantage over other clubs (like they need it) and devalues the competitions. Fans of the impacted clubs don't generally want the association with Celtic and Rangers because of the bigotry either. 

I mean that's fine but my original point to you was pretty clear on having them in the "pyramid at Senior level" I have reiterated it several times since. 

 

Fans having "massive issues" or not, I'm pointing out the facts and also pointed out that the EoS has a long history of having reserve/B teams as members. The problem lies with them being parachuted into a higher level, but I've already said that.

I'm not entirely convinced that many fans would give a rats ass if any B teams joined at the bottom of the Pyramid just like any other new member, It's hardly a hot topic of conversation outwith this forum and even the OF Colts issue hardly raises many eyebrows in the grand scheme of things.

[Bazil85]

3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

 

Fans having "massive issues" or not, I'm pointing out the facts and also pointed out that the EoS has a long history of having reserve/B teams as members. The problem lies with them being parachuted into a higher level, but I've already said that.

I'm not entirely convinced that many fans would give a rats ass if any B teams joined at the bottom of the Pyramid just like any other new member, It's hardly a hot topic of conversation outwith this forum and even the OF Colts issue hardly raises many eyebrows in the grand scheme of things.

My point ONLY relates to the issues when they get to the senior levels (League 2 and above). I said so in the first response. 

I also don't think they should have been allowed anywhere near the Lowland league in the way they were, it was hugely unethical when considering the number of clubs working their way up to there the right away. 

As far fans not caring, (again only from the professional league perspective) there was a fan survey completed with thousands of responses and Colts in the professional structure was extremely unpopular. There are bigger fish to fry in Scottish football yes, but for me I think Celtic and Rangers have hoped to use this to sneak in under the radar. Fortunately the backlash has been enough and the voting structure means we won't likely see these factually unfair proposals pass anytime soon. 

We also need to remember when considering fan view, the Glasgow bigots dominate fan power and media in Scottish football. Any fan backlash will be diluted because of this. When Colts comes up the media hardly covers at all the views of other clubs fans. 

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

My point ONLY relates to the issues when they get to the senior levels (League 2 and above). I said so in the first response. 

I also don't think they should have been allowed anywhere near the Lowland league in the way they were, it was hugely unethical when considering the number of clubs working their way up to there the right away. 

As far fans not caring, (again only from the professional league perspective) there was a fan survey completed with thousands of responses and Colts in the professional structure was extremely unpopular. There are bigger fish to fry in Scottish football yes, but for me I think Celtic and Rangers have hoped to use this to sneak in under the radar. Fortunately the backlash has been enough and the voting structure means we won't likely see these factually unfair proposals pass anytime soon. 

We also need to remember when considering fan view, the Glasgow bigots dominate fan power and media in Scottish football. Any fan backlash will be diluted because of this. When Colts comes up the media hardly covers at all the views of other clubs fans. 

That's an issue for the SPFL to deal with.  The Colt issue really isn't much of a topic of widespread discussion between fans that I can see. Most really don't understand it or care.

Meanwhile, we just need the LL to do the right thing tonight, and if ANY B team wants to play in the Pyramid in future then they join at the bottom like everyone else.  It then perhaps needs agreement between the leagues as to how far they're allowed to progress.

[Pyramid Watcher]

34 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

My point ONLY relates to the issues when they get to the senior levels (League 2 and above). I said so in the first response. 

I also don't think they should have been allowed anywhere near the Lowland league in the way they were, it was hugely unethical when considering the number of clubs working their way up to there the right away. 

As far fans not caring, (again only from the professional league perspective) there was a fan survey completed with thousands of responses and Colts in the professional structure was extremely unpopular. There are bigger fish to fry in Scottish football yes, but for me I think Celtic and Rangers have hoped to use this to sneak in under the radar. Fortunately the backlash has been enough and the voting structure means we won't likely see these factually unfair proposals pass anytime soon. 

We also need to remember when considering fan view, the Glasgow bigots dominate fan power and media in Scottish football. Any fan backlash will be diluted because of this. When Colts comes up the media hardly covers at all the views of other clubs fans. 

They got away with it last season due to Covid and there being no eligible club to come up from tier 6, that doesn’t apply this time.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Pyramid Watcher