Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[parsforlife]

52 minutes ago, Marten said:

1 hour ago, Ray Patterson said:

So like a Social Club then?

Similar yes, although it's also where you'd go for food and drinks during the game or at HT, rather than a pie hut like in Scottish grounds for example. You can often see the pitch from inside.

Probably what we would have if not for our ridiculous discriminatory alcohol laws.

[FairWeatherFan]

The Lowland League as a training ground for the next generation of Scottish talent is working wonders. Hopefully he can go back on loan to Celtic B as he won't learn anything playing in a reserve league like PL2.

 

[Robert James]

On 30/03/2022 at 19:16, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I like pointing out to the crayon munchers who support B teams in the pyramid and use Netherlands as an example that theres a correlation between the decline of their national team and B teams in their league system. 

I am NOT in favour of B teams being given preferential (promotion) treatment over pyramid clubs, and I don't buy the view that there is a correlation  between Celtic & Rangers B-teams, and the national team. A more effective loan system between Premiership and SPFL clubs, would be a better development opportunity for talented players, IMO. It seems to work very well in the EFL.

However, the more important change in the current Scottish Pyramid, must be promotion to, and relegation from, SPF League Two. Scotland now has an inclusive system for no-league clubs, which makes it timely to further open up the system. 

As I have said before, Club 42 should be relegated automatically, and replaced by the winners of the Highland/Lowland Play Off.  In addition, Cub 41 should face the losers of the HFL/SLL, in a play-of, with the winning club retaining or gaining League Two status..

This is particularly essential now, with the West of Scotland champions adding strength & quality to the Lowland League, with only a  'drip feed'  of one club per season having the chance of promotion.  SPFL clubs, when relegated, will find it increasingly difficult to return to league status, especially because the trap door is to small  to climb back through. Ask East Stirlingshire or Berwick Rangers for their views. Also, Brechin City have performed well in the Highland League, but they won't be HFL champions at the end of this season.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

I am NOT in favour of B teams being given preferential (promotion) treatment over pyramid clubs, and I don't buy the view that there is a correlation  between Celtic & Rangers B-teams, and the national team. A more effective loan system between Premiership and SPFL clubs, would be a better development opportunity for talented players, IMO. It seems to work very well in the EFL.

However, the more important change in the current Scottish Pyramid, must be promotion to, and relegation from, SPF League Two. Scotland now has an inclusive system for no-league clubs, which makes it timely to further open up the system. 

As I have said before, Club 42 should be relegated automatically, and replaced by the winners of the Highland/Lowland Play Off.  In addition, Cub 41 should face the losers of the HFL/SLL, in a play-of, with the winning club retaining or gaining League Two status..

This is particularly essential now, with the West of Scotland champions adding strength & quality to the Lowland League, with only a  'drip feed'  of one club per season having the chance of promotion.  SPFL clubs, when relegated, will find it increasingly difficult to return to league status, especially because the trap door is to small  to climb back through. Ask East Stirlingshire or Berwick Rangers for their views. Also, Brechin City have performed well in the Highland League, but they won't be HFL champions at the end of this season.

Edited April 1, 2022 by welshbairn

[Bazil85]

On 24/03/2022 at 13:21, Dev said:

How do they deal with these situations in other countries e.g. Spain ? It doesn't seem to cause any issues there - unless anyone knows different.

I do not care if the OF B teams are in the pyramid or not but why would Stranraer Reserves or East Fife Reserves for example be not allowed into pyramid leagues at the bottom? Where would you draw the line between the likes of these clubs and the the "big" clubs - not just the OF ?

Spain and other leagues with Colts are not comparable. To my knowledge there is no other major football nation on earth with Colts steered only by the wants of two clubs at the expense of others. 

I also don't think it is comparable when looking at the professional leagues in Scotland (the 42 professional member clubs) and the very bottom of the Scottish pyramids which are generally aimed at amateur players playing for recreation, not to make it as professional football players. There has been very limited progression in B teams/ Colts at these levels into professional teams, in fact I can't think of a single example. 

As for where do I draw the line, it at a minimum needs to be at the professional league levels (league 2) as Colts in those leagues will require more fundamental changes to competitions, voting rights and professional player movements. I personally wouldn't have any colts for full-time senior clubs without massive contingency that meant Scottish youth development is the priority, including rules which meant they had to feature in Senior 11s after a grace period. Say for example, five years from now, any club with Colts MUST play 3-4 of the Colt graduates (homegrown ones so Scotland eligible)  in every starting 11 at senior club level. That would actually have real benefit for the Scotland national team. 

Finally, the unfair distribution of income in this country means generally, only Celtic & Rangers and possibly a couple of others can prop up professional Colts. It is a non-argument to discuss other clubs having Colts up the structure. If we want to make that argument, let's have an income distribution model that allows it. 

On 24/03/2022 at 15:11, Burnieman said:

Just to re-cap, if any team applies to the WoS and EoS and meet the leagues requirements, they'll likely be accepted.

That will equally apply to reserve/B teams from any club.  There is already a reserve team in the EoS, and they are already subject to certain restrictions.

That's fine to an extent at such a low level where the player development is mainly recreational & there is little expectation or likeliness that they will go on to give professional clubs a competitive advantage. If people on here genuinely don't think there is a difference between B teams in amateur leagues to them being allowed in the professional structure to progress the two biggest clubs by far in the country, fine. But there really, really is. 

[Dev]

Basically the whole matter should be dealt with by the SFA who should set out guidelines for clubs and leagues to follow. Sadly there seems to be little chance of that happening at present.

[DiegoDiego]

To my knowledge there is no other major football nation on earth with Colts steered only by the wants of two clubs at the expense of others. 

Italy only has Juventus Colts.

[vikingTON]

18 minutes ago, Dev said:

Basically the whole matter should be dealt with by the SFA who should set out guidelines for clubs and leagues to follow. Sadly there seems to be little chance of that happening at present.

The SFA has no day to day jurisdiction over how SPFL competitions are run - and nor should it. In a highly competitive race, they have proven themselves to be the most useless and tone-deaf set of blazers in the room.

A Scottish football setup organised by the SFA would be a shambles and incorporate just about every feature that fans hate. 

[Burnieman]

4 hours ago, Bazil85 said:

That's fine to an extent at such a low level where the player development is mainly recreational & there is little expectation or likeliness that they will go on to give professional clubs a competitive advantage. If people on here genuinely don't think there is a difference between B teams in amateur leagues to them being allowed in the professional structure to progress the two biggest clubs by far in the country, fine. But there really, really is. 

I'm giving you an indication of what would likely happen should B teams apply to join leagues and tick all the boxes for membership like any other prospective new applicant.

I don't really care about player development or where B teams could end up, I'm just outlining some facts.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, virginton said:

The SFA has no day to day jurisdiction over how SPFL competitions are run - and nor should it. In a highly competitive race, they have proven themselves to be the most useless and tone-deaf set of blazers in the room.

A Scottish football setup organised by the SFA would be a shambles and incorporate just about every feature that fans hate. 

On another thread Burnieman is indicating that the promotion/relegation issues at HL/LL level etc are due to come up at a Pyramid Working Group before long. Maybe this issue will also be brought up there?

In recent years it has been the lower level clubs which have been behind the major Pyramid developments and changes so maybe they are the ones who will get this raised and sorted out? 

In any case there's no reason why the SFA don't bring it to the PWG.

[parsforlife]

The PWG have no power, it’s only when the reps go back to the leagues when anything can get decided. 

[craigkillie]

The SFA has no day to day jurisdiction over how SPFL competitions are run - and nor should it. In a highly competitive race, they have proven themselves to be the most useless and tone-deaf set of blazers in the room.
A Scottish football setup organised by the SFA would be a shambles and incorporate just about every feature that fans hate. 

The poster you're replying to spends most of his time on this forum suggesting that the SFA should step in to situations that have nothing to with them and which they have no power over.

They seem to have no understanding of the way that any Scottish football structures work in practice.

[FairWeatherFan]

While their attendances have been higher than average, they've failed to meet their own conservative estimates.

 

They've lucked out with Bonnyrigg and Vale of Leithen at opposite ends. Only looks like SPFL Trust Trophy participation might be effected as CSS, Berwick, and East Stirlingshire are still in contention. While Berwick Rangers would have the advantage over CSS with no OF.

 

[Dev]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

The poster you're replying to spends most of his time on this forum suggesting that the SFA should step in to situations that have nothing to with them and which they have no power over.

They seem to have no understanding of the way that any Scottish football structures work in practice.

Try telling UEFA / FIFA that the SFA is not responsible for football in Scotland. 

The SFA has, for historic reasons, stood back from accepting full responsibility for all aspects of the game. They do a lot of good work - it's not all bad - and a World Cup appearance is almost there to show that.

However, although they have stood back, it should not be taken as they have no rights or responsibilities to step in when necessary when things go wrong. If there's a problem then deal with it and not let matters drift so that they get worse. There doesn't need to be unnecessary delay in getting problems sorted out.

This historic (traditional) SFA standing back from its' duties:

We've all seen the hash made of a large section of men's adult football below SPFL level by a certain organisation. What's done is done so no need to pillory those in charge there now.

We've all read on P&B of the regrets that many clubs have that they didn't bite the bullet and apply to enter the Lowland League when it was formed.

We've all read on P&B of the deep concerns about how promotions and relegations need to be improved as soon as possible. If some of these clubs had made the move then maybe the current debate over promotions/relegations from SPFL2 down wouldn't be necessary as that might have been resolved by having such stronger clubs in the LL?

It all goes back to those who are responsible for the game at top level failing to get a grip with their responsibilities. It is something which can be done - just check out England (but they're much larger than Scotland, I hear, - so what!). If the English comparison doesn't work then check out Northern Ireland or Wales as they've made it work. You can't get more traditional than the Republic of Ireland about how it runs the game there but even they are moving to a pyramid system - or at least it is starting to make the effort.

Historic management of the game below SPFL has failed but is being put right but it's the clubs and their leagues that have driven that. It should have been dealt with by the SFA. Stuff historic rights - we're in the 21st Century now!

[bravehearts dad]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

While their attendances have been higher than average, they've failed to meet their own conservative estimates.

 

They've lucked out with Bonnyrigg and Vale of Leithen at opposite ends. Only looks like SPFL Trust Trophy participation might be effected as CSS, Berwick, and East Stirlingshire are still in contention. While Berwick Rangers would have the advantage over CSS with no OF.

 

It would be interesting if someone with the know how(not me) could add another column. A Column with the attendances when the clubs had Bonnyrigg as visitors.  Chiefly as “The Rose “ are arguably the best supported team in the League. Thanks if poss.

C’mon The Rose

Edited April 2, 2022 by bravehearts dad
Grammar

[FairWeatherFan]

56 minutes ago, bravehearts dad said:

It would be interesting if someone with the know how(not me) could add another column. A Column with the attendances when the clubs had Bonnyrigg as visitors.  Chiefly as “The Rose “ are arguably the best supported team in the League. Thanks if poss.

C’mon The Rose

[Ginaro]

18 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

If you're doing stats what about working out the non-B team attendances and the change (total + %age) for each club?

[bravehearts dad]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Thank you. Much appreciated.

C’mon The Rose

[FairWeatherFan]

Doesn't factor in the unknown games or Stirling's BCD game to the totals or games played. Average is just rounded down as standard.

[rockson]

On 01/04/2022 at 11:43, Bazil85 said:

Spain and other leagues with Colts are not comparable. To my knowledge there is no other major football nation on earth with Colts steered only by the wants of two clubs at the expense of others. 

 

Scotland is a major football nation?