Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Che Dail]

22 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Still, fair play. Suggesting that Manchester City's success is down to the number of B team matches their players took part it rather than, say, the billion or so quid they've spent is certainly a bold take.

Eh, you've made that up.

The suggestion is that a number of elite players, including some of the very best in the world, at the best clubs in the world, have played in B Teams.

 

[Bully Wee Villa]

Players that played in leagues with B teams tend to have played in B team matches. Players that play in leagues without B teams don't. Incredible research, thanks.

[welshbairn]

22 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

No, I didn't. Read it again.

There's a distinction between saying: "It played a part in their development"(fact)

and

"It's the only reason they got to the level they did" (not a fact)

 

 

You could say the same for players who started off with the Boys Brigade or in reserve leagues, it's not evidence that B teams are a better pathway.

Edited March 15, 2023 by welshbairn

[MrWorldwideJr]

At the risk of stating the obvious, you can't just pick a country with B teams integrated into their structure, reel off their good players and then say 'See, B Teams work!'. All that you've proved is that if B teams exist in a structure then young players tend to have played in them at some point.

You haven't proved that B teams are the reason they turned out to be good players or made any contribution to their development that they couldn't have gotten in another way.

You could just as easily pick out a nation without B teams and reel off a bunch of good players who never played in one and say 'See, B teams don't work!'. 

This is exactly the same principle as your previous favourite country Croatia. Just because a country has B teams and reached the World Cup final doesn't mean that the two things are linked.

Edited March 15, 2023 by MrWorldwideJr

[Che Dail]

29 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

How can they be strong when they don't have B teams?  England are producing better and better youngsters, their under age teams are very strong in tournaments. They don't have B teams.

They do have B teams - but not in the league structure.

With the size of the country,  the wealth of its top-level clubs, and the quantity of them, perhaps there is sufficient competition and development opportunities in reserve leagues.  It has been shown that this doesn't adequately work for Scotland, unfortunately.

Germany, as a comparator, does have B teams - as does France, and Spain.

 

[Blue Brazil Forever]

5 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Eh, you've made that up.

The suggestion is that a number of elite players, including some of the very best in the world, at the best clubs in the world, have played in B Teams.

 

Very few surely but certainly not enough to give a very limited number of teams preferential access and treatment.

[RiG]

16 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Oh ok - not content with Haaland and Odegaard. in fairness, they are probably the only two world-class Norwegian players .

Here are some full Norway Internationals for your list:

Alex Sorloth (27) - Rosenborg B - now Leipzig (on loan to Real Sociedad). 45 Caps.

Kristoffer Ajer (24yr old) - Lillestrom B - now Brentford. 27 Caps

Sander Berge (25) - Asker B, Valerenga B - now Sheff Utd. 32 Caps

Orjan Nyland (32) - Ingolstadt B - then Aston VIlla, now Leipzig.  42 Caps

and if I can be permitted Mats Moller Daehli (28) - Freiburg B (GER). 35 Caps.

Yes that one game Nyland played for Ingolstadt B was definitely critical for his development path.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

At the risk of stating the obvious, you can't just pick a country with B teams integrated into their structure, reel off their good players and then say 'See, B Teams work!'. All that you've proved is that if B teams exist in a structure then young players tend to have played in them at some point.

You haven't proved that B teams are the reason they turned out to be good players or made any contribution to their development that they couldn't have gotten in another way.

You could just as easily pick out a nation without B teams and reel off a bunch of good players who never played in one and say 'See, B teams don't work!'. 

Tell that to Pep Guardiola, and Ferran Soriano at Man City.

"Developing players in England is a problem.  B teams aren't allowed and we have a development vacuum for players between the ages of 17 and 18".

 

[Burnieman]

14 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

They do have B teams - but not in the league structure.

With the size of the country,  the wealth of its top-level clubs, and the quantity of them, perhaps there is sufficient competition and development opportunities in reserve leagues.  It has been shown that this doesn't adequately work for Scotland, unfortunately.

Germany, as a comparator, does have B teams - as does France, and Spain.

 

They have U23 teams, playing in an U23 league.  They do not have B teams playing in the Nationwide Conference (or whatever it's called now).

They are producing quality young English players in increasing numbers to the point where England really are a top side and (unfortunately) will win the Euros at some point.

They don't have B sides playing Solihull Moors or Altrincham.

[BonessBWAH_]

4 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Tell that to Pep Guardiola, and Ferran Soriano at Man City.

"Developing players in England is a problem.  B teams aren't allowed and we have a development vacuum for players between the ages of 17 and 18".

 

They had no problem developing Phil Foden, Cole Palmer or Rico Lewis. (0 B Team matches by the way)

Playing a handful of matches for a B Team side doesn’t transform a young kid into some superhuman footballer. If they’re good enough they will make it.

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Oh ok - not content with Haaland and Odegaard. in fairness, they are probably the only two world-class Norwegian players .

Here are some full Norway Internationals for your list:

Alex Sorloth (27) - Rosenborg B - now Leipzig (on loan to Real Sociedad). 45 Caps.

Kristoffer Ajer (24yr old) - Lillestrom B - now Brentford. 27 Caps

Sander Berge (25) - Asker B, Valerenga B - now Sheff Utd. 32 Caps

Orjan Nyland (32) - Ingolstadt B - then Aston VIlla, now Leipzig.  42 Caps

and if I can be permitted Mats Moller Daehli (28) - Freiburg B (GER). 35 Caps.

 

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but Ingolstadt is in Germany. Since it was about the Norwegian use of B teams for development doesn't really count. Even if it were, a 25-26 year goalie playing for the reserve side isn't really about development is it?

Also not really sure why you would want Mats Moller Daehli. Since he skipped Norwegian B teams. Straight into the 1st team, then onto Cardiff before being parked in Freiburg's reserves for a bit. Out the door before too long. Now firmly settled as a 2nd tier player in Germany. Not exactly world class is it?

Missed a trick on your stat skewing by the way. Ajer must have played a few fizzy pop cup games when at Celtic. Fundamental to his career progression.

[Burnieman]

I'm having flashbacks to last year and the year before.  Just debating the same stuff with the same conclusions.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

While we're here, having an U23 team as your second team is ridiculous. You are grown men by then, and it will be almost certain whether they are going to make it or not. It is just more hoarding of wealth and resources, and denial of opportunity to young players that should be out playing first team football a level or two down in most cases.

Those teams should be U20 or U21 and bigger clubs should be forced to decide by then to stick or twist with the youngster and give them 1st team squad opportunities or allow to find their own path elsewhere.

Pep's comment is a nonsense too. A problem between U17 and U18? What, a whole year? Gosh, better allow Man City B, C and D into the league. U18 football, then release or move into U20/21, then release or into 1st team squad.

[Pyramid Watcher]

16 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

While we're here, having an U23 team as your second team is ridiculous. You are grown men by then, and it will be almost certain whether they are going to make it or not. It is just more hoarding of wealth and resources, and denial of opportunity to young players that should be out playing first team football a level or two down in most cases.

Those teams should be U20 or U21 and bigger clubs should be forced to decide by then to stick or twist with the youngster and give them 1st team squad opportunities or allow to find their own path elsewhere.

Pep's comment is a nonsense too. A problem between U17 and U18? What, a whole year? Gosh, better allow Man City B, C and D into the league. U18 football, then release or move into U20/21, then release or into 1st team squad.

Yeah, what does Pep know

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, Pyramid Watcher said:

Yeah, what does Pep know

I for one only listen to those with managerial experience at Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and Man City*

Those experiences are truly universal and can be applied to everyone.

 

*Once it became state backed. Obviously.

 

[PastyMan]

The Power of "B"
Simple answer, rename EVERY team in Scotland to put a "B" after their name

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, PastyMan said:

The Power of "B"
Simple answer, rename EVERY team in Scotland to put a "B" after their name

Tiny change. Any club that's gone bust and recreated should be numbered for whatever version it is now. Rangers II for example.

[PastyMan]

3 hours ago, RiG said:

Number of B team games played for each:

Ederson - 4
Rodri - 39
Akanji - 21
Gündoğan - 3
Haaland - 18

I suspect that the number of B team games played were not a significant influence on them going on to be top players but better coaching, natural ability and, possibly most importantly, their clubs actually played them instead of leaving them wasting away in youth teams.

Here's the nub of the argument.
What is causation and what is correlation?
I suspect (though I only went through a few in the latest Scotland squad) that most players at International level will make a breakthrough into 1st team football at some level between 18-21 and seems to me that " better coaching, natural ability and, possibly most importantly, their clubs actually played them instead of leaving them wasting away in youth teams." is a critical factor

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

I'm having flashbacks to last year and the year before.  Just debating the same stuff with the same conclusions.

And it won't stop until the slags get what they want. 

[The Moonster]

2 hours ago, Pyramid Watcher said:

Yeah, what does Pep know

He knows that its better for his club if he can hoard even more players and pick the best of them for his first team. If there is a vaccuum at age 17-18 its because their transfer policy has created no pathway for youngsters to get gametime. Their problem, not footballs.