Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, virginton said:

Threave didn't win the SoS league last season, never mind 'skooshed it'. It doesn't seem that they're 'skooshing' their current division either.

Perhaps Threave are just not as good as they think that they are and jumping from one league to another is an excuse.

Why so negative, Threave came into the West with ambitions. Yes they were caught out by the competitiveness of the ex-ammies and boys clubs. They seem to have addressed that and the return game against St.Peters proved this. Kilsyth and West Park are a level above that so the return games are eagerly anticipated. 

Don't underestimate the quality of Div 4, cup results have shown the depth in quality of the teams therein.

[Ginaro]

4 hours ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Entirely  correct, the day Kilsyth Ath. came visiting there was a buzz around Meadow Park and although I am probably wrong the crowd seemed larger. It was defo all locals as KA don't have a big support yet, though it is growing.

It was being filmed for a feature on a View from the Terrace.

[Ray Patterson]

 

[vikingTON]

8 hours ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Why so negative, Threave came into the West with ambitions. 

There's absolutely no reason why Threave couldn't achieve their much-vaunted ambition, by playing in the league that they are located within. Which already has a play-off spot to access tier 5 in the Scottish league - one that Threave couldn't compete in last season, because they weren't good enough.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, virginton said:

There's absolutely no reason why Threave couldn't achieve their much-vaunted ambition, by playing in the league that they are located within. Which already has a play-off spot to access tier 5 in the Scottish league - one that Threave couldn't compete in last season, because they weren't good enough.

Fair point made vT. Will get back to you, off to Meadow Park for the Whitletts game.

[Guest]

On 01/02/2023 at 18:52, HorseyGhirl said:

Fair point made vT. Will get back to you, off to Meadow Park for the Whitletts game.

Sorry for delay replying been busy with family.

Straight answer yes Threave were not good enough to win the play-off to tier 5 when easily dispatched by Kelty. Then in subsequent years didn't win the SOS before their move to WOS. I think thats the point of the move to find their true level in the pyramid within a competitive setup, not being artificially high and getting embarassed at the play-offs against better teams. I believe I mentioned in a previous post on another thread that when WOS was setup and Bonnyton moved across to the West Prem, Threave decided to stay put simply because they knew they weren't competitive enough. This year they felt the time was right to move to WOS and are more than happy to start at bottom and work their way up as far as they can go. The feeling is that they could not compete in the Lowland if they were to somehow win a play-off, but if they get there in the subsequent years via the WOS, I don't think there would be any doubt it was deserved.

Additionally I was rounded upon on a thread about Wellington joining the SOS, for highlighting that the quality of teams in the SOS is not at the same level as WOS and EOS. And that the time was nigh to find the SOS true level in the pyramid. I stand by this. Threave have played 2 SOS teams in the Challenge Cup this season. 5-0 & 8-0. I know they have some big wins in Div 4. But are in 3rd place and probably best they can achieve is 2nd unless results go their way. Again justification for me that they are doing this the right way, next season will be interesting in Div 3, which they look like achieving.

The point of a pyramid is finding your level. Not being artificially high or low because of geography or historically due to the league you happen to be in. Over to y'all. 

[vikingTON]

On 05/02/2023 at 18:38, HorseyGhirl said:

Straight answer yes Threave were not good enough to win the play-off to tier 5 when easily dispatched by Kelty. Then in subsequent years didn't win the SOS before their move to WOS. I think thats the point of the move to find their true level in the pyramid within a competitive setup, not being artificially high and getting embarassed at the play-offs against better teams. I believe I mentioned in a previous post on another thread that when WOS was setup and Bonnyton moved across to the West Prem, Threave decided to stay put simply because they knew they weren't competitive enough. This year they felt the time was right to move to WOS and are more than happy to start at bottom and work their way up as far as they can go. The feeling is that they could not compete in the Lowland if they were to somehow win a play-off, but if they get there in the subsequent years via the WOS, I don't think there would be any doubt it was deserved.

There's an absolutely monumental amount of heavy lifting going on in this justification, when the reality is that Threave Rovers weren't good enough to win their own league and so jumped ship. 

I'm simply not buying their soul-searching schtick to truly deserve their place in the LL. 

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The point of a pyramid is finding your level. Not being artificially high or low because of geography or historically due to the league you happen to be in. Over to y'all.

Well no, the point of a pyramid is to have a structure that allows teams to progress while integrating all parts of the country into the system. That's why geography matters because you need regional leagues to stop it just being swamped by the Central Belt. 

Threave pursuing their own interest (more cynically and also misguided IMHO) doesn't just impact themselves. It impacts the rest of the West region that is adding a ridiculous trip to Castle Douglas to their schedule at a time when costs are already sky-high. 

Once we have a pyramid that fully integrates the whole of Scotland then adjustments can be made. But we're nowhere near that yet and will not succeed in bringing all parts of the country into a true pyramid setup unless boundaries are clearly defined and stuck to.  

[Guest]

11 hours ago, virginton said:

There's an absolutely monumental amount of heavy lifting going on in this justification, when the reality is that Threave Rovers weren't good enough to win their own league and so jumped ship. 

I'm simply not buying their soul-searching schtick to truly deserve their place in the LL. 

Well no, the point of a pyramid is to have a structure that allows teams to progress while integrating all parts of the country into the system. That's why geography matters because you need regional leagues to stop it just being swamped by the Central Belt. 

Threave pursuing their own interest (more cynically and also misguided IMHO) doesn't just impact themselves. It impacts the rest of the West region that is adding a ridiculous trip to Castle Douglas to their schedule at a time when costs are already sky-high. 

Once we have a pyramid that fully integrates the whole of Scotland then adjustments can be made. But we're nowhere near that yet and will not succeed in bringing all parts of the country into a true pyramid setup unless boundaries are clearly defined and stuck to.  

Have you spoken to anyone at Meadow Park, I can say I have and the 'heavy lifting' I embarked upon is/are what I've heard from people at Meadow Park. Yes their junping ship was for selfish reasons, the future progression of their club, I  think thats a good enough justification.  Remember they dropped from the relative comfort of a league with no relegation to a league where they can go up and very quickly down, so it can still blow up in their faces. I am not a Threave Fan Boy just a local enjoying the better football on show and that includes coming from Threave. 

Just to add, why do you feel it is misguided and as far as the negative impact goes, not heard one negative from any of the visiting clubs.

A ridiculous trip it's a jaunt down the M74 then after Dumfries 20 mins on the tractor road. Personally i can do KBT to Nth. Lanarkshire in 1 hr 45.

Edited February 8, 2023 by HorseyGhirl

[vikingTON]

12 hours ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Yes their junping ship was for selfish reasons, the future progression of their club, I  think thats a good enough justification.  

If Albion Rovers get relegated from SPFL2, should they be allowed to jump ship from the Lowland League to the Highland League for "future progression of the club"? After all, Brechin are doing rather better than the likes of Cowdenbeath or East Stirling - and the gulf is only likely to grow in the next 10-15 years. The same question applies between tiers 5 and 6: perhaps East Stirling would fancy their chances in the SoS if they drop in the near future?

For a pyramid to work for all clubs in the country there has to be clear regional boundaries at tier 6. Threave's self-interest should therefore have been kicked into touch. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by vikingTON

[Guest]

12 hours ago, virginton said:

If Albion Rovers get relegated from SPFL2, should they be allowed to jump ship from the Lowland League to the Highland League for "future progression of the club"? After all, Brechin are doing rather better than the likes of Cowdenbeath or East Stirling - and the gulf is only likely to grow in the next 10-15 years. The same question applies between tiers 5 and 6: perhaps East Stirling would fancy their chances in the SoS if they drop in the near future?

For a pyramid to work for all clubs in the country there has to be clear regional boundaries at tier 6. Threave's self-interest should therefore have been kicked into touch. 

Thank you you have hit nail on head. Albion Rovers are in Lowland League territory. Problem in West/South is we have 2 Leagues where clubs can legally apply to. SOS and WOS this needs sorting to sort out Threave/Wellington  situation.

Edited February 9, 2023 by HorseyGhirl

[PossilYM]

On 08/02/2023 at 20:10, virginton said:

If Albion Rovers get relegated from SPFL2, should they be allowed to jump ship from the Lowland League to the Highland League for "future progression of the club"? After all, Brechin are doing rather better than the likes of Cowdenbeath or East Stirling - and the gulf is only likely to grow in the next 10-15 years. The same question applies between tiers 5 and 6: perhaps East Stirling would fancy their chances in the SoS if they drop in the near future?

For a pyramid to work for all clubs in the country there has to be clear regional boundaries at tier 6. Threave's self-interest should therefore have been kicked into touch. 

Quite funny to read that considering the Eosfl fan boys on here that split blood over the Battle of River Tay demarcation line during the Lowland League wars or the Harthill Royal skirmish.

[stanley]

For a pyramid to work, you can't have two leagues covering millions of the population and another covering 150,000 at the same level. Until they sort that out, we'll have problems. It's purely historical reasons keeping things like that. They'd never have set things up like that if they were to start from scratch designing the leagues in a pyramid.

Awaiting VT's red dot

Edited February 13, 2023 by stanley

[Gordon EF]

Coming up for 2 full seasons of B team experience for the OF now. Given that Mbappe become a superstar off the back of a dozen B games at Monaco, I can't wait to see what all these young superstars will do next season.

[LowerLeagueFC]

12 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Coming up for 2 full seasons of B team experience for the OF now. Given that Mbappe become a superstar off the back of a dozen B games at Monaco, I can't wait to see what all these young superstars will do next season.

Rangers and Celtic both heavy favourites for Champions League next season IMO

[vikingTON]

On 13/02/2023 at 16:41, stanley said:

It's purely historical reasons keeping things like that. They'd never have set things up like that if they were to start from scratch designing the leagues in a pyramid.

Awaiting VT's red dot

Well no, it isn't "purely historical reasons" at all. It's because there are existing clubs at tier 5 like Dalbeattie and Gretna who need a viable league to drop down to. That's how basic geography works - the country doesn't just stop at the Bothwell Junction. 

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Until they sort that out, we'll have problems. 

Identify and explain please a single problem that has been caused by the presence of the SoS at tier 6.

If those leagues had an automatic promotion spot each, then you would have a legitimate point. But under the current system, if the winner of the super-region beats the winner of the diddy-region, then they simply progress to the next stage on sporting merit. That's exactly how a functioning pyramid system works.

Indeed your comparison between the two makes a far stronger case for the breaking up of the West into at least two more coherent leagues, rather than the back of a fag packet, Strathclyde+Argyll+err Castle Douglas setup right now. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by vikingTON

[stanley]

You didn't disappoint, thanks.

 

As with most pyramid systems, the levels get more local the further you go down. It doesn't make much sense to have level 10 as a west-wide region so you would expect some more regionalisation as you go down. The problem at the moment is that we have clubs in level 5 who are smaller than clubs below because of the juniors joining the pyramid late. You would never have a league at level 6 for one small region like Dumfries & Galloway if you were do things logically. Leagues like that would come further down the pyramid. Clearly, the vast majority (if not all) of the SoS couldn't compete with other level 6 clubs.

[vikingTON]

I asked you to identify and explain a single problem caused by the SoS league being at tier 6 in the current system. What with this being proof that the pyramid 'isn't working'.

Strangely enough, you did disappoint on that score. 

As for running leagues logically - there's only one regional organisation busy scheduling Campbeltown-Castle Douglas as league fixtures in the middle of a cost of living crisis.

Edited February 15, 2023 by vikingTON

[stanley]

Can you justify it being part of tier 6?

1) When relegation finally expands from the Lowland League, having the SoS there will cause issues. There should be three relegation spots from the LL and they should be shared between the WoS and EoS.

2) What possible reason is there to have the WoS and EoS (covering millions of people) alongside the SoS (covering 150k people)? Why should a club like Glasgow Wellington be able to apply and potentially jump straight in at tier 6 when other clubs are starting at tier 9 or 10?

[vikingTON]

On 13/02/2023 at 16:41, stanley said:

For a pyramid to work, you can't have two leagues covering millions of the population and another covering 150,000 at the same level. Until they sort that out, we'll have problems. 

That's twice I've asked you to identify and explain a single problem caused by SoS at tier 6 to date - and still you have found none. 

So now we're back to your fictional expansion scenario and railing about the injustice of it all. An expansion plan that leaves nowhere for at least two of the existing LL clubs to go in the event of relegation: can't imagine why this hasn't been taken up!

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2) What possible reason is there to have the WoS and EoS (covering millions of people) alongside the SoS (covering 150k people)?

What possible reason is there for the WoS to cover 'millions of people' on an entirely back of fag packet basis? Your argument demonstrates only that the West is far too large and should be broken up. 

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Why should a club like Glasgow Wellington be able to apply and potentially jump straight in at tier 6 when other clubs are starting at tier 9 or 10?

They shouldn't because they're not in the SoS catchment area. In the same way that Threave are not in the West of Scotland catchment area and so should be kicked out of that league.

The only league that created that precedent was the WoS by accepting an obviously stupid and self-centred application from a team dozens of miles outside its catchment area in the first place. For you to try and use that as an argument to demote the South for 'causing problems' in the pyramid is utterly laughable. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by vikingTON

[highlandcowden]

13 hours ago, stanley said:

The problem at the moment is that we have clubs in level 5 who are smaller than clubs below because of the juniors joining the pyramid late.

so the problem in this pyramid is,really,the LL