Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[TheScarf]

I doubt there's a league in the UK, maybe even the world, with such a high percentage of 'if they went bust tomorrow, no cunt would bat an eyelid' clubs as are there are in the Scottish Lowland League.  A genuine joke of a league.

[Lowland team]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

The Stenny guy wanted relegation from League 2 suspended for 3 seasons to help clubs "recover from Covid". He's a charlatan.

Also wants to keep the playoff's in place.and did ask for a licence review to make it harder for clubs outwith the spfl to gain theirs.theres now 3 clubs ground sharing at stenhousemuir 3 paying rent.also all hospitality pies. teas.are done by his club

[AsimButtHitsASix]

9 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It would be reasonable to compare against clubs and cities of a 'similar stature' rather than comparing countries by population.

Quantities of people in urban areas (critical mass) tend to sustain successful football clubs (eg 50k season ticket holders + global reach).  It is football clubs and not countries working day to day with elite young players in a professional environment, and paying for it.  

 

None of the countries in your list are strong by club co-efficient (reflecting the strength of their leagues + top clubs):

17. Norway, 18. Denmark, 19. Croatia, 30. Slovakia, 35. Bosnia & Herzegovina, 36. Finland, 40. Ireland, 47. Georgia

Do many of these countries feature clubs of 'stature'?

 

Compared to the top 10:

1. England, 2. Spain, 3. Italy, 4. Germany, 5. France, 6. Portugal, 7. Netherlands, 8. Austria, 9. Scotland, 10. Russia

Those in bold feature B teams in their league structures (Italy has 1): it is quite normal, and most operate at T2 or T3 in the pyramid.  The top 5 clubs in the English league feature several top class European players with B team experience.

 

As shown across Europe there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of B-Teams but if implemented properly in Scotland they should not be so far down the order as the Lowland League.  They should be part of the Professional Game - which realistically is T2.  

It is time for a wholescale review of the league structure from top to bottom.  We currently have a trickle of promotion / relegation between leagues which is not adequate.  The structure is not shaped like a pyramid - it is a column. 

There's not much between the top WoSFL and EoSFL clubs and those in L2 or L1, certainly when it comes to potential - and many of the towns and clubs are of 'similar stature'. 

There is a volume of clubs who could operate competitively at T3 if the structure broadened out at that level to accommodate them - again, this is something you typically see across Europe in various league structures.

Ye've basically confirmed the argument that B teams in the league is for the benefit of two clubs

[Clinically Proven]

5 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Diddy teams. I hate Cumbernauld passionately for having fucking ‘colts’ in their name, I cringe every time I see it written down. Gretna will go down so get it up them and Broomhill will go bust when the shitey podcast thing collapses. Caldeonian Braves is just a collective of uber staunch fannies who dont make quite enough money to have any influence at Rangers so started this outfit. 

Most of them are Rangers and Celtic fans really, many dont make any attempt to hide it. 

Cumbernauld are right up there with Caledonian Braves and the Open Goal lot for me, bunch of snakes. Reason they went into Broadwood in the first place is they were trying to capitalise on one of the many occasions where we almost left Broadwood thinking they'll pap us out now for sure they've got another tenant every two weeks...the problem with that is that they have f**k all fans and always will. The likes of Cumbernauld United and EK Thistle elsewhere already fill the gap in these newer big towns for a local accessible club to go and watch games at. There's no appetite for these shitey teams like Cumbernauld Colts at all. f**k off and stay in your lane, which is boys club football. 

[Omnishambles]

10 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

I doubt there's a league in the UK, maybe even the world, with such a high percentage of 'if they went bust tomorrow, no c**t would bat an eyelid' clubs as are there are in the Scottish Lowland League.  A genuine joke of a league.

And people will still argue that making the route to that level more accessible for tier 6 sides with considerably bigger fanbases and far more competitive sides than a number of teams already in the LL shouldn't be the priority in all this. As I saw someone on Twitter post, if any pyramid reconstruction doesn't involve automatic promotion for every league winner then it's still broken.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Omnishambles

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

It would be reasonable to compare against clubs and cities of a 'similar stature' rather than comparing countries by population.

Quantities of people in urban areas (critical mass) tend to sustain successful football clubs (eg 50k season ticket holders + global reach).  It is football clubs and not countries working day to day with elite young players in a professional environment, and paying for it.  

 

None of the countries in your list are strong by club co-efficient (reflecting the strength of their leagues + top clubs):

17. Norway, 18. Denmark, 19. Croatia, 30. Slovakia, 35. Bosnia & Herzegovina, 36. Finland, 40. Ireland, 47. Georgia

Do many of these countries feature clubs of 'stature'?

So you've given up on the usual pish to just say Celtic and Rangers.

 

[Kirk St Moritz]

As quite a few clubs / posters and fans have stated today, this is happening now, so best to try and make the best of it.

For me, more interestingly now is how quickly this SFA Pyramid review gets started, and in what format.  Even those vehemently against B Teams should be using this review as a chance to be heard and really try and force the SFA / SPFL to have a proper look at what the future pyramid looks like and how to improve it.

I'd suggest some broad agreed principles like every champion is promoted in future etc.

I also wonder, if (and its a big IF) such a review does indeed help open up the pyramid further for greater promotion from all Tiers, have the LL done the right thing by engaging B Teams for a short period to help deliver a greater good?  Or not?

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Ye've basically confirmed the argument that B teams in the league is for the benefit of two clubs

Not sure why you'd think that. 

Portugal has 6 clubs with B teams in the structure.  Austria = 5; Spain = 6; France = 12; Czech Republic = 12; Netherland = 6 

and so on

[Che Dail]

19 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So you've given up on the usual pish to just say Celtic and Rangers.

 

Glasgow = 1.7m (Barcelona 1.6m, Vienna 1.8m, Prague 1.3m)

Edinburgh = 530k (Lisbon 505k)

Aberdeen = 230k (Porto 250k)

Dundee = 150k (Braga 190k)

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Not sure why you'd think that. 

 

Because you jumped in saying that it's not right to compare country populations centres. It should be urban areas, plenty of countries with similar populations to Scotland have cities bigger than Glasgow. So you put the cherry on top of 50k+ season ticket holders + global reach.

[fatbadger442]

1 hour ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

The Stenhousemuir chairman, who @Benidorm referred to as an "Orange Lodge fuckwit" who would welcome B sides into the system, appears to be fully against.

I'd like to think clubs at that level would be making angry representations to the SPFL and SFA regarding their deceitful involvement in using member clubs, without their knowledge, as an enticement to the LL group who lack any football history in buying their support for B teams.

He isn't "fully against". He is objecting to the possibility of a pyramid review that may suggest increased tier4/5 relegation/promotion. He is being an opportunist, using the anger against the B teams to gain support for his own self-interested status quo.

 

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

As quite a few clubs / posters and fans have stated today, this is happening now, so best to try and make the best of it.

For me, more interestingly now is how quickly this SFA Pyramid review gets started, and in what format.  Even those vehemently against B Teams should be using this review as a chance to be heard and really try and force the SFA / SPFL to have a proper look at what the future pyramid looks like and how to improve it.

I'd suggest some broad agreed principles like every champion is promoted in future etc.

I also wonder, if (and its a big IF) such a review does indeed help open up the pyramid further for greater promotion from all Tiers, have the LL done the right thing by engaging B Teams for a short period to help deliver a greater good?  Or not?

Completely disagree with having this "it is what it is" attitude to colts. Why not just take that attitude to the pyramid, or promotion and relegation. Ah well, L2 clubs don't want to open up promotion into tier 4. Best to try and make the best of it. Nope. If something isn't right, argue to change it.

I am absolutely all for a big review where everything is put on the table. The pyramid structure, promotion and relegation, youth development. Argue everything on it's merits. This cannot be be done properly when two clubs (with the power of veto) and the SFA or SPFL leadership are just using all of this as bargaining chips to suit the narrow agenda of two clubs. It's a ludicrous situation to be in and it's a catastrophic failure of leadership right across Scottish football.

[Kirk St Moritz]

2 minutes ago, fatbadger442 said:

He isn't "fully against". He is objecting to the possibility of a pyramid review that may suggest increased tier4/5 relegation/promotion. He is being an opportunist, using the anger against the B teams to gain support for his own self-interested status quo.

 

Spot on.  And the amount of folk buying it is odd, as he's trying to preserve the current difficult route from Tier 5 to 4.  (Which incidentally is a harder route that 5 to 6, due to the fact that there is no automatic relegation from Tier 4 to 5)

[Kirk St Moritz]

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Completely disagree with having this "it is what it is" attitude to colts. Why not just take that attitude to the pyramid, or promotion and relegation. Ah well, L2 clubs don't want to open up promotion into tier 4. Best to try and make the best of it. Nope. If something isn't right, argue to change it.

I am absolutely all for a big review where everything is put on the table. The pyramid structure, promotion and relegation, youth development. Argue everything on it's merits. This cannot be be done properly when two clubs (with the power of veto) and the SFA or SPFL leadership are just using all of this as bargaining chips to suit the narrow agenda of two clubs. It's a ludicrous situation to be in and it's a catastrophic failure of leadership right across Scottish football.

Your first paragraph describes the status quo between tier 4 and 5, which has been in place for 8 years without any serious challenge or any daylihgt.

And i get your second point (although 3 clubs and not 2) but part of me thinks that the LL now needs to make the very most of having the 3 x biggest hitters in the land inside the tent and to use them to try and effect the greater good for all levels of pyramid.

[FairWeatherFan]

People seem to forget there was already a working group set up not that long by the people pushing this agenda. They came up with 12-12-12-12 staggered over several seasons expanding by two clubs at a time. Obviously Celtic and Rangers B being the first two. Which was never went aware. Supposedly the SPFL2 Playoff would have remained the same even with the gradual increases

Weren't some of the Non-OF bigger teams doing their own review of Scottish Football recently as well? That doesn't seem to have gone anywhere.

As for something independent. We've seen what happens with the McLeish report type efforts.

 

[Gordon EF]

5 minutes ago, Kirk St Moritz said:

Your first paragraph describes the status quo between tier 4 and 5, which has been in place for 8 years without any serious challenge or any daylihgt.

And i get your second point (although 3 clubs and not 2) but part of me thinks that the LL now needs to make the very most of having the 3 x biggest hitters in the land inside the tent and to use them to try and effect the greater good for all levels of pyramid.

I know. I'm in favour of increased promotion from tier 5 and 6, in principle. Anyone saying "it is what it is" with the colts is only doing it because they're in favour or ambivalent about them.

Hearts are really just opportunistically jumping on the bandwagon. They're not the ones driving this.

My whole point is that all of this good stuff won't happen as long as these clubs and the SFA and SPFL just continue to drive a wedge right down the middle of Scottish football. All it does is create two sides, mistrust, bad feeling and will end up with both sides refusing to support anything the other wants out of spite.

[Dundee Hibernian]

1 hour ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

The Stenhousemuir chairman, .................., appears to be fully against.

15 minutes ago, fatbadger442 said:

He isn't "fully against". He is objecting to the possibility of a pyramid review that may suggest increased tier4/5 relegation/promotion. He is being an opportunist, using the anger against the B teams to gain support for his own self-interested status quo.

I was interpreting what he is quoted as saying, and summed up that he appeared to be fully against.

You seem clear that he isn't against B sides. Apologies if you know the man and his views personally.

[Cornishman]

Bearing in mind that so far, all we have is a probable notification of proposals yet to be made.

I, personally cannot corroborate the following... "2022/3 is very much a holding position. There will be breathtaking changes for 2023/4". However, the person I'm quoting is a sometimes P&B poster and on the Forum where I mostly interact with him, he is recognised as a sensible, grounded member of long standing who very rarely shares incorrect information, if ever.

I think that he had a simple clerical 'slip', though, in not explaining that the 2023/4 season should be a transitional period, where any proposed changes would become extant in 2024/5.

[zenon]

Really hoping the HL champions win next season's pyramid play off and Forfar and Elgin don't finish last in League 2 so two of the money grabbing diddys get flushed out. 

[Lowland team]

Read something today from the pj that the highland league would not rule out colts joining thier league.