Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Marten]

I think most people on here are fairly comfortable with the fact he knows a damn sight more about Dutch football than you.

Plus I've never claimed to be a definite authority on Dutch football. I'm only relaying experiences & thoughts from myself and others I've spoken to about this subject.

And btw, I've played non-league in The Netherlands, until I had to retire as my knee gave up...

[Sergeant Wilson]

24 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

Curiously, the Dutch didn't have B teams when they played the original "Total Football" featuring Cruyff. Meanwhile, Spain had them since the 1940s at least, and were consistent underachievers on the global stage. So why would B teams suddenly be responsible for success around 60 years after they were introduced?

And the vast majority of Spanish B teams are there to make up the numbers way down the pyramid in the regional divisions.

[Dev]

6 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

And the vast majority of Spanish B teams are there to make up the numbers way down the pyramid in the regional divisions.

There again, if they come into the lower leagues at an appropriate level, as mentioned by Burnieman, they wouldn't be much of an issue to anyone. They may well stay at those levels too just like in Spain, apparently.

[AB1872]

4 hours ago, drs said:

I don't think there is a poster in the history of this site who has been as continually wrong, arrogant and bullying as you.

So you know, pot meet kettle.

I beg to differ ……

[jaggyness]

So see with all the extra media coverage they were bringing, how was I totally unaware of the game at parkhead toning until 15 minutes ago?

[AB1872]

20 minutes ago, jaggyness said:

So see with all the extra media coverage they were bringing, how was I totally unaware of the game at parkhead toning until 15 minutes ago?

I watched the first half. Rangers played the better stuff but failed to make chances count. Dembele looks good for Them

Decent crowd. A wee bit embarrassing waving a huge Popes XI banner.
 

Anyway should it not be Popes second XI? 

[peternapper]

23 minutes ago, jaggyness said:

So see with all the extra media coverage they were bringing, how was I totally unaware of the game at parkhead toning until 15 minutes ago?

Be interesting to know the make up of the teams, noticed somebody mentioned in the last game it was either 15 or 18 of the players involved would not qualify for the Scotland team even if good enough. 

[AB1872]

14 minutes ago, peternapper said:

Be interesting to know the make up of the teams, noticed somebody mentioned in the last game it was either 15 or 18 of the players involved would not qualify for the Scotland team even if good enough. 

Most of the usual Rangers XI are Scottish

No Lowry or King tonight for Rangers

 

[AB1872]

1-0 Rangers 

Celtic Keeper taking lessons from McGregor

Cole McKinnon with the goal

[Marten]

17 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Of the team that beat Germany in the 2008 final, only 3 out of 14 Spanish players didn't play in their club B teams. 

Casillas, Ramos, Machera, Puyol, Capdevilla, Iniesta, Xavi, Silva, Alonso, Carzola, Guila gained B or C team experience, 473 competitive matches between them.

That experience played a part in every players' development, and that is undeniable.

That's absolutely no proof that they wouldn't have developed into the players they were without B-teams. As said, Spain have been massive underachievers pre-2008. Despite B-teams, they failed miserably at pretty much every single tournament before then. Your "arguments" of successful teams having players that played for B-teams can easily be countered by mentioning failing teams that had B-teams, like pre-2008 Spain or post-2014 Netherlands. Or by using examples of successful teams from countries that don't have B-teams for example. For the record, I don't think any of that is "evidence" on either side of the argument.

There are plenty of issues to discuss on the pathways available for youth players. Countries like Spain, The Netherlands & Germany might have B-teams, but there are plenty of other things that are different in youth development compared to over here. Many people just focus on B-teams but maybe, just maybe, it's far more complex and B-teams might not nearly be the most important thing to copy from those countries.

[superbigal]

Anyone got any thoughts on tonights game.
Zombies B are a rather large 17/10 with McBookie.  

Oh well not many punters on here.

[bravehearts dad]

41 minutes ago, superbigal said:

18 hours ago, superbigal said:

Anyone got any thoughts on tonights game.
Zombies B are a rather large 17/10 with McBookie.  

Oh well not many punters on here.

Answer quite simple as you know. Naebody is interested.

C’mon The Rose

[lanky_ffc]

Even if you disregard the 'moral' side of the argument (should one club ever have more than one team in the same pyramid), there's a still a paucity of arguments from the pro-Colts people. Since this was first mooted years ago they haven't really moved on from cherry-picked examples like 'Spain, Germany and the Netherlands do it and they're good'. I've got a betting strategy that takes me to some pretty obscure European leagues and many of their 2nd/3rd tiers have B teams. Yet you never hear anyone mentioning jobber nations like Romania, Hungary and Georgia because it doesn't suit their narrative.

Not that I want this project to progress any further but I actually think more people could be won over if they were more convincing with the national team benefits. As it stands they're just trying to push their agenda through with minimal effort and money.

Edited April 13, 2022 by lanky_ffc

[Marten]

28 minutes ago, lanky_ffc said:

Even if you disregard the 'moral' side of the argument (should one club ever have more than one team in the same pyramid), there's a still a paucity of arguments from the pro-Colts people. Since this was first mooted years ago they haven't really moved on from cherry-picked examples like 'Spain, Germany and the Netherlands do it and they're good'. I've got a betting strategy that takes me to some pretty obscure European leagues and many of their 2nd/3rd tiers have B teams. Yet you never hear anyone mentioning jobber nations like Romania, Hungary and Georgia because it doesn't suit their narrative.

Not that I want this project to progress any further but I actually think more people could be won over if they were more convincing with the national team benefits. As it stands they're just trying to push their agenda through with minimal effort and money.

Exactly. There are so many different aspects of youth development in countries that have B-teams and are "good". People are just lazily only focusing on B-teams, not what else those countries have different from us. If having B-teams was a part of a wholescale reform of the youth system here in Scotland, not just to benefit 2 clubs but with changes across the board, we'd have a wholly different discussion.

[Che Dail]

On 12/04/2022 at 18:12, craigkillie said:

 

Curiously, the Dutch didn't have B teams when they played the original "Total Football" featuring Cruyff. Meanwhile, Spain had them since the 1940s at least, and were consistent underachievers on the global stage. So why would B teams suddenly be responsible for success around 60 years after they were introduced?

Nobody said that B teams were suddenly responsible for success - but they undeniably have played a part in many top players' careers and will continue to do so.

It is an irrelevance to note that Spain had B Teams since 1940s without dominating international football because there are other more significant factors at play.

1975 was significant in Spain because the country's fascist leader General Franco died.  Prior to that, Spain was effectively isolated from the rest of Europe and was a relatively poor country as a consequence of its closed economy.  With the growth in economy and wealth which followed political change, so did the country's success in football.

Kuper argues that their reputation as 'underperformers' was wrong - it was cliched and misguided, given the country's modest resources of people and wealth.  It was simply not big or rich or connected enough to expect to match the leading nations in football.

He also asserts that it is possible to draw a direct line between Cruyff's arrival in Barcelona (in 1973) and Spain's victory in Johanesburg 37 years later.

Note that Cruyff promoted Guardiola from the Barca B team, and Guardiola cites him as the greatest influence in his career as a player and as a coach.  Guardiola is supportive of the idea of B Teams in England - to a similarly conservative audience as we have in Scotland. 

Whereas in Europe, it is normal, and works.

Here's a nice piece on the Man city website: https://www.mancity.com/features/cruyff-way/

Edited April 14, 2022 by Che Dail

[craigkillie]

So in fact Johann Cruyff and the death of Franco have more to do with Spain's success than B teams. Cool, thanks.

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

So in fact Johann Cruyff and the death of Franco have more to do with Spain's success than B teams. Cool, thanks.

A 'blend' of timing and circumstances, of which B Teams played a part.

This is "The hidden side of everything" if you believe the principles behind 'Freakonomics', which inspired 'Soccernomics'.

[Burnieman]

20 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Nobody said that B teams were suddenly responsible for success - but they undeniably have played a part in many top players' careers and will continue to do so.

Any team a player plays for "plays a part"

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Strikes me that Rangers are asking for the season to be extended because they are in the europa semi’s, despite that potentially reducing the rest time for players who could be picked for the world cup play off? I thought Rangers and Celtic were arguing that we should include B teams for the good of the national team etc etc seems like that argument doesnt apply when it comes to asking them to make a sacrifice? Kinda blows the ‘for the good of the game’ argument up a bit eh?

[Pyramid Watcher]

5 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Strikes me that Rangers are asking for the season to be extended because they are in the europa semi’s, despite that potentially reducing the rest time for players who could be picked for the world cup play off? I thought Rangers and Celtic were arguing that we should include B teams for the good of the national team etc etc seems like that argument doesnt apply when it comes to asking them to make a sacrifice? Kinda blows the ‘for the good of the game’ argument up a bit eh?

Using this argument against B teams is clutching at straws imo. Whatever your feelings about the 2 Glasgow teams, surely that fact that we have a Scottish team in a major European comp semi trumps any argument about the rights and wrongs of B teams, after all the co-efficient of the country is being boosted.